Are men struggling to maintain friendships without excuses for spending time together, like going to the bar or watch the game together? Hosts Bo Méndez and Jackson Bird discuss the larger trend among men as well as how it’s played out in their own lives, and what we can do to be better at connecting with each other.
Are men struggling to maintain friendships without excuses for spending time together, like going to the bar or watch the game together? Hosts Bo Méndez and Jackson Bird discuss the larger trend among men as well as how it’s played out in their own lives, and what we can do to be better at connecting with each other.
Watch the video version at youtube.com/c/everythingsbigger
everythingsbigger.simplecast.com
Email us at everythingsbigger69@gmail.com
Bo
Jack
Stuff we mentioned:
Men find new ways to bond during the pandemic (Washington Post)
The Pandemic Is Resetting Casual Friendships (The Atlantic)
Croc balls (Etsy)
Scientists Accidentally Discover Strange Creatures Under a Half Mile of Ice (Wired)
[theme music plays]
Bo: hello and welcome to everything's bigger!
Jack: a podcast about my---(laughs) [record
scratch] I'm sorry I started to mispronounce
"masculinity"
Bo: a podcast about my nuts!
[tv signal beep]
[tv static]
[fancy music plays]
(laughter)
Jack: did you see that they've got um croc
balls now? like you know the the truck balls
Bo: (laughs) what?
Jack: that you can put on your trailer. I
mean i'd say "you can" i mean i suppose you
can. i don't imagine you would want to but
they have them for crocs now
Bo: Noooo (laughing)
take me now
Jack: yeah so––
Bo: i'm ready to leave
Jack: (laughs) i'll put a link to those in
the show notes in case anyone wants to see
them
Bo: jesus christ every day we stray further
from god's light
Jack: i-i don't know why i didn't suggest
that for the entire topic today actually
(both laugh)
Bo: you gotta bring them up that's you're
just the tip now, croc balls
Jack: oh yeah. i should've. (laughs)
it's not just the tip though, bo. it's croc
balls.
Bo: yeah it's the opposite side.
Jack: all right now that we got that out of
the way
Bo: croc ball's deep!
(laughter)
Jack: title of the episode!
Bo: oh jesus all right. should we start to
try the the intro again ?
Jack: yeah go for it sorry
Bo: all right all right
[theme music plays again]
Bo: hello and welcome to everything's bigger!
Jack: a podcast about masculinity for dudes
of all genders who ask "why?"
Bo: and so here's the thing about masculinity––
here we are in the dead of winter and i'm
realizing that masculinity is a whole lot
like a snow drift in about, i don't know,
march, april if the snow is still there you
see that there's a whole layer of this like
frozen kind of slushy white stuff but the
deeper you dig the more weird sh-- you find!
sometimes you find garbage from january. earlier
today i saw a piece of a christmas tree sticking
out of there! and sometimes no matter how--no
matter what you do, you can't avoid it, you're
gonna get down deep enough to find some sh--
some real frozen sh-- and that's what we do
on this show is we start at that top layer
and we chip away and we find everything that
we can find to really unpack the whole concept
Jack: well with that beautiful portrait of
new york city that Bo just painted for us...
(laughs) well we are your hosts i'm jackson
bird
Bo: and i'm bo méndez and i'm sorry for how
visceral that was.
Jack: i'm glad we marked this as explicit
too. a lot of swearing right up at the top
uh but anyways uh today we are discussing,
surprise surprise, the pandemic! but from
a masculinity tinted lens, as most episodes
we do are uh we're gonna be talking about
the ways in which men generally i guess, but
you know not not everyone uh not all men.
(snorts) hashtag not all men, ugh man
Bo: thank you for taking the words out of
my mouth
Jack: uhhhh no but how a lot of men have struggled
to maintain friendships and therefore you
know maintain some good mental health throughout
the pandemic so we're going to be talking
about a lot of different things that kind
of play out from that general thought but
first it's been a long time since we have
recorded an episode which you know all of
you regular listeners will know that a lot
of people been asking when we're gonna have
a new episode but also we are very aware of
how long it's been based on how difficult
this has been to do!
Bo: pages have flown off of the calendar um
empires have risen and fallen
Jack: that's possibly true. little too real
Bo: yeah oh um eesh but yeah it's it's been
a hot minute and and i like the fact that
you brought up like regular listeners will
know but i i think that one thing i want to
to talk about um in this kind of like you
know pre-main segment time while we're catching
up on like what we've been doing in the last
few months. when was the last time we recorded
one of these? for halloween right? so that's--
Jack: yeah but we probably recorded in like
september
Bo: yeah so that's like four-ish five-ish
months ago. i don't even know. i'm bad at
time math, i've realized
Jack: which yeah in in pandemic years that's
about like three decades, i think
Bo: yeah something like that um easily a few
presidential terms and probably the span between
Tool albums um but i will say that one thing
that has happened um in the interim was uh
i was on a little game show uh called uh -- it
has a weird name it's like it's like gia pard?
giopardo? gepetto?
Jack: i've yeah i've never been able to pronounce
it correctly. Geopardé?
Bo: Gerard de Pardeux?
Jack: Ahh yeah oui oui. i'm just offending
all french people now. i apologize
Bo: Hon hon! it's okay we're like i don't
know i'm like one nineteenth french. um not
really. uh also that's a that's a terrible
fraction. uh but i'm bringing that up because
i will say that one thing that was kind of
what was cool from that experience--the whole
experience was super cool but i actually got
to talk about the podcast on my little interview.
so if there is––
Jack: I totally forgot about that!
Bo: if there are any new listeners tuning
in because of that, thanks for tuning in!
Sorry i got that voice to men question wrong
and welcome to everything's bigger!
Jack: (laughs) um i'm so glad you brought
that up mostly because i was going to tee
you up to bring it up so just well done self-advocating
for yourself there on the coolest thing that
you did like i don't even know what i've done
in this time because all i can think is like
well bo's been on jeopardy and it was really
cool. that's what i've done. i watched Bo
on Jeopardy. i tweeted about it a lot uh and
i did actually record when you mentioned the
podcast but i have forgotten to annoy everyone
by bombarding their feeds with it every single
day--
Bo: we'll make sure to attach that––
Jack: which was my intention
Bo: but i i refuse to believe that the highlight
of the last four or five months or so for
you was watching me be on tv for 22 minutes.
so what have you been up to? what's what's
what's new in your world?
Jack: i mean i think i think you were vastly
overestimating how i've been spending my lockdown
because that really was a highlight. the highlight
perhaps. um no i mean you know i had the holidays.
pandemic version of the holidays but i still
love the holidays so that was definitely a
highlight for me. i love christmas and halloween.
i you know i just i've been making a lot of
podcasts mostly i think. i already made a
podcast today. this is my second podcast of
the day now. um been appearing on other people's
podcasts. i think i like this yeti microphone
is basically just like attached to my mouth
now.
(Bo laughs)
just kind of hangs off of it in a human centipede-esque
way
Bo: oh good lord we're just killing it with
the with the visuals today
Jack: i gotta say if if we had regular listeners
they're all gone at this point
Bo: bye! don't let the door hit you with the
good lord and split you
Jack: you know i i feel like you know we were
talking a little bit before we started recording
um of we are both just like... we've got a
lot going on and we've got a lot to say about
the main topic today but have both really
been struggling to come up with anything else
to talk about uh or you know say anything
about what's going on in our lives because
i think i i i mean i guess speaking for myself
maybe kind of hitting that like pandemic wall
of people ask me how i am and what's been
going on in my life and i'm just like i don't
know. i have nothing to say on that topic.
next question please.
Bo: yeah it can be tough like you know and
that's probably a good i don't know way to
way to maybe segue into some of that stuff
is that now when you when you get the chance
to talk to a family member or a friend or
even a co-worker it's like hey how's it going?
and the answer is i found at least some variation
of like "well it's going." it's like i'm here
and you know it really it's something that
you know maybe this is uh one of those moments
of uh collective resonance where anybody who
can answer that question that's going to be
the answer is, well i'm here
Jack: i did see--well two points on that one
is i got an email from someone today um vanessa
zoltan for anyone who knows, co-host of harry
potter in the sacred text, and she said that
a friend of hers started referring referring
to it as "COVID well" like "how are you?"
"oh i'm COVID well" which just kind of is
like acknowledging everything that's going
on but like that said i'm doing okay kind
of thing yeah um but i've also oh go ahead
Bo: i was just gonna say stills trucking
Jack: yeah yeah oh i might start saying that
i used to say that one i like that one. trucking.
still trucking. uh but i have seen people
talking about how it's kind of nice that it
feels like you're allowed to say you're not
okay now. which i don't know that i have personally
experienced but i think as a cultural shift
i definitely have um and i would agree i think
that's cool if people can be more honest uh
in response to the question of "how are you?"
i think that's definitely good
Bo: yeah that's that's actually a really good
point. like i do think--i've noticed that
as well is that they're you know, i guess
it depends on on the relationship you have
with the person that you're talking to. like
maybe there are professional acquaintances
or something like that that you just don't
want to get that uh at least that i've had
a few of those uh but i do think that it's
more accepted and people have a more compassionate
response if they ask how you're doing and
your response is well not great because yeah
to an extent you know for for some reason
or another unless you're jeff bezos or something
like that, most of us are doing a version
of not great but we're we're still trying
to figure out how we can soldier on um and
and find our place.
Jack: i wonder if part of that too is kind
of the solidarity in it. like of course there
are people who uh are struggling much more
in um certain ways from the pandemic right
now or have other non-pandemic related things
but like everyone is going through the pandemic
in some way and so if you ask someone how
they are and they admit that they're--it's
not going great, like it's not a shock to
you um and you have at least a little bit
of common ground from which you can you know
then open up a conversation and check in on
them make sure you're okay. whereas before
if you were to get the response from someone
that they're not great that kind of like could
shake your world a little bit. like you're
like okay i was just doing the formality thing
here and now it got real
Bo: (laughs) it's it's interesting like i
i it makes me think of um a tweet that i saw
a lot a long time ago because of course i
i just see tweets and memes um but it was
like noting how uh attitudes had shifted toward
therapy and it was like in the 60s or 70s
someone would be like "oh yeah i heard that
they were in (whispers) therapy" and now it's
just like "yo you wouldn't believe the sh--
my therapist said today" like we've become
so much more open and accepting of people
seeking out that kind of help and it makes
me wonder with this kind of landscape, what
does our---what do, what does the future of
even our casual uh interactions look like
when we've spent now almost a year by the
time this episode airs probably a year um
in in a state of like it's okay to not be
okay as being kind of like a a general rule?
Jack: yeah i i really wonder about that too
and Bo that was such a seamless transition
into our main segment that i don't know if
you did that on purpose or not but well done
uh
Bo:absolutely accidental but i'll take the
credit, bam!
Jack: i think we should move on to our main
segment of the day Bo: yeah let's let's get
into it
(music plays)
Jack: so today like i said at this at the
top we want to talk a little bit about men
maintaining or not maintaining friendships
throughout the pandemic and i mean i think
it's something that we've both observed in
our own lives or in people that we know um
but also Bo you had found a really interesting
article kind of talking about this um using
a few different men as examples. do you want
to kind of like summarize--we'll put the article
in the show notes but if you want to sort
of summarize some of your takeaways from it
or like your impressions of the situation
overall?
Bo: yeah yeah for sure so this this article
so this is uh this--what was the title of
it? uh "no game days. no bars. the pandemic
is forcing some men to realize they need deeper
friendships" what a title. um and it actually
came out in in november so like you know this
is around the end of thanks of the thanksgiving
period as we're
Jack: still more recent than our last episode
Bo: yeah true still more reason than our last
episode. i love how you earlier by the way
you said i love all the holidays, halloween,
and that reminded me that oh yeah halloween's
actually happened since then.
Jack: yeah i had a lot of trouble with that
like over the summer. i kept forgetting easter
it happened.
Bo: yeah it's it's so weird to like look back
at your at your milestones and be like oh
wait no no we passed that we passed that a
minute ago um
Jack: i also had a weird thing at the start
of the year where i kept thinking it was summer
to the point that like i was trying to convince
a friend to go do some outdoor dining with
me on a 20 degree day because i was like "it's
like 60 degrees it's springtime let's go like
have a beer outsid"e and she was like "it's
freezing out. what is wrong with you?" but
i just genuinely kept thinking it was summertime
Bo: i've been cold for four months you're
alone on that one
Jack: i don't know i don't know what's wrong
with me
Bo: but no like time is so rubbery and so
like so like the more you think about it the
more you realize like time is a social construct
right? like there's there's there's there's
not a whole lot aside from the position of
the sun that says how long a day is supposed
to be um and like we're really really feeling
that right now. um but anyway.
Jack: uh yeah sorry tangent
Bo: no no halloween was great by the way dear
listeners. uh we we actually i think this
is even this is before this before i knew
i was going to be on jeopardy and definitely
before i had done it and couldn't tell anybody
but i actually did a a halloween-themed round
of like a jeopardy-esque game. i couldn't
figure out how to do all the rules but i like
made a game board and it was all themed and
that all that kind of stuff and you know if
you're curious about it, let me know and i'll
share it? i don't know. it had stuff about
werewolves. anyway
Jack: it was yeah it was, no it was it was
really fun. it was really well planned out
and i don't say that just because i won
Bo: that's right you did win!
Jack: Yep.
Bo: totally forgot. See time is weird! and
because time is weird and our social interactions
are weird this article that came out at the
end of november as we were about to go into
the uh the rest of the holiday season uh really
struck a nerve for me um and in it the author
uh, let's see, samantha schmidt interviews
a number of men talking about you know what
their relationships with their guy friends
predominantly have been like since the pandemic
hit and you know what has changed and also
kind of like what got us into this situation?
and so she makes some interesting points um
and of course she's citing other experts that
are that are in the article so when you get
the when you when we drop the link to that
you'll see in the text who the experts are
and what the you know the the deeper writings
are but essentially she brings up the point
that a lot of uh women typically have face-to-face
relationships where you'll meet up and you'll
have dinner or go for a walk or have lunch
and talk about stuff whereas guys tend to
have what she calls shoulder to shoulder relationships
and that's where you'll meet up at a bar to
like watch a game or you know uh to you'll
go to a concert or you'll play video games
together or you'll go hang out and watch a
movie and so like the actual interaction the
conversation is less the main event so much
as the shared experiences and with the fact
that bars have been closed or just not a great
place to go to and you know i'm not much of
a sports dude to begin with but like you can't
really go to a game um i'm definitely a concert
guy and i haven't been to a concert in over
a year. um with the lack of those experiences
a lot of the men that are interviewed in this
piece feel like their friendships are becoming
more difficult. and it goes into like what
have they gotten to do instead of that. and
so it's like online gaming has come into play
for some of these people um who like you know
would normally be doing couch co-op or something
like that um they they've like gotten more
into online gaming and and stuff that you
can do um from a distance or even let's plays
where you just like sit down and watch somebody
else play the game in order to have that feeling
of interaction and that's something that i've
been getting into a little bit uh i'm i'm
about as much of a gamer as i am a sports
guy i suppose but i've been playing more video
games recently just because it gives me something
to do um and i've been actually watching a
number of my friends get involved on like
twitch streaming and just like showing up
to support and be like "yeah you do that thing!"
um but also like whatsapp groups and group
chats and that sort of thing have become a
place where uh men are actually getting to
not just maintain the friendships they've
already had but also experience them on a
deeper level because that's kind of another
thing that gets brought up in this article
is that a lot of men their friendships are,
i don't want to say... superficial is the
word that comes to mind i'm not trying to
discount the friendships but it's that they
don't really talk about the deep stuff the
heavy stuff. they don't talk about what's
going on in their lives. like one of the one
of the men that's interviewed uh has he his
relationship ends so he has to move out on
his own and he kind of like unloads on some
of the people that he does online gaming with
being like you don't even know why we broke
up i bet. like ask me how we broke up. and
you know some of these places which have been
primarily for joking around, ribbing each
other, you know you're really only using the
group chat to set up your plans for when you're
actually meeting in person um they become
a place where now these deeper interactions
are actually starting to take place and i
think it's it's really interesting to see
you know how um masculine relationships friendships
between men have started to in some cases
evolve um since the pandemic has has been
going on for as long as it has and then something
that was of particular interest to me is the
fact that how do we get here in the first
place? um
Jack: yeah that's what i was gonna say
Bo: yeah so like um part--one of the things
that gets brought up is that like friendships
between men they lack uh ground rules and
so sometimes men don't necessarily know how
to get into a new friendship and that's something
that i've really had a lot of times um with
like some of my friends who who now i'm happy
to say are really close friends but like you
know for me it's like i meet somebody i think
they're just super f----n cool and i want
to be their friend but i'm really worried
about coming on too strong and seeming like
clingy or needy, and so i will kind of like
lock it down and then you end up with a friendship
where it feels um more difficult to have a
deeper interaction with somebody uh because
you don't want to, you don't want to freak
them out like um you don't want to you don't
want to all of a sudden spring that sort of
stuff on them and so you end up with this
kind of like arms length type thing and and
and i'll be honest like that that's how my
friendship with you started i was like, jack's
cool as f---! i don't want to like like creep
this dude out by being like be my friend and
like my friend nick who actually like performed
my marriage um that's how my friendship with
him started out. i was just like dude you're
so cool! like you know you know all this stuff
about like vintage guitars and motorcycles
and i just want you to teach me um but i was
worried that he would think that i was like
stalking him or something like that so i kind
of put the lid on it and as a result you know,
luckily these these two examples, obviously
i'm you know in a podcast with jack and nick
performed my marriage um they've become stronger
but i do think that that is a common experience
for lots of men where you know they'll meet
somebody that they want to have that kind
of like meaningful friendship with but it's
hard to get it off the ground because society
to an extent has taught men you know emotional
intimacy is not what men do. so all the stuff
that you imagine about having deep conversations...
don't rush into it. and so you have like a
bunch of arms-length friendships um that now
in the pandemic are being kind of tested um
as people you know we need each other we need
people we need connection we need networks
for you know to use a buzzword um and so people
are, men especially, are trying to figure
out ways to forge those and ways to strengthen
those in a scenario that is not conducive
to that
Jack: yeah yeah, i i want to go back to kind
of what you were saying about the um the--the
the fear of being like clingy or coming on
too strong um has made me think of two different
things: one you know i think what you were
saying there at the end about society sort
of telling men that like you can't have these
emotional connections with men, that you know
oh that's gay or that's feminine. you know
you should be able to be this independent
you know like rugged individualist man and
be able to do everything on your own like
i i think that is definitely more of it than
necessarily um a lack of ground rules. um
because i don't think there's any ground rules
for other genders being friends with each
other. um like i don't think there's necessarily
rules that exist there at all, but i do think
like you know from my own experiences---and
this is not across the board we're generalizing
a lot on this episode but like--
Bo: that's what we do!
Jack: yeah (laughs) my--in in my friendships
with um with definitely with women and with
a lot of non-binary people as well like it
just kind of everything comes a little bit
more naturally and i feel like there's not
as much self-consciousness happening there,
whereas with men i definitely feel what you
have felt as well of the like uh is am i gonna
like freak him out? and i think especially
being both trans and bi i'm always scared
of freaking out like cis straight men of--or
even not straight like of just like making
them think that i like have a crush on them
instead of just being like, you're cool like
let's be friends. um so i have like a lot
of paranoia like wrapped up in that when i
am trying to navigate these kinds of friendships.
Bo: well that yeah yeah that that's really
honestly calling it out. like i i was talking
about like uh lack of ground rules but that's
where the lack of ground rules stems from
and that's me kind of quoting quoting from
the article because the article actually goes
further into that and says that that that
um you know lack of guidance feeling is really
grounded in homophobia. it's grounded in uh
a an attempt to not appear feminine. all these
things that you just said that's really you
know that's that's the nougaty center of that
is is is this stuff that is uh deeply ingrained
by society into men and it makes it makes
things more difficult because of those exact
reasons. like um you know, like i don't know,
i i i guess i guess i don't want to say that
that's how i felt when i was entering into
into some of these friendships that i that
i mentioned because i don't want to admit
i suppose to deeply internalized homophobia,
but like nick especially--um i feel like,
i feel like if if he listens to this i don't
think he'll mind me bringing it up or something
like that but uh one of the things that we
bonded over at first was Scrubs and like the
relationship between turk and jd like confronts
that pretty head-on and he was like yeah dude
like when you have a good guy friend it's
guy love and it's okay and like there's all
these these all these sort of situations that
uh we're raised in that tell us that it's
not okay and it makes it harder for us to
develop those friendships later on. um so
yeah like it is that you know you might not
be a homophobic person but the internalized
homophobia that so many of us can't subscribe
to or have kind of like forced onto us or
or you know impose on to us um it makes it
more difficult um to forge friendships because
you'll be worried that the person that you
want to be friends with thinks you have a
crush on them and it it it makes it makes
you know connections and uh relationships
that should come really naturally have this
extra layer that you have to work through
in order to get them started
Jack: yeah and i i don't want to delve too
deeply into this for this episode because
i think we should do like a whole episode
on it at some point. um i think we've talked
about it, but this is the complicated feelings
that i have with regards to like shipping
male characters. like when there are characters
uh like i you just said their names but i
forgot their names on Scrubs
Bo: Turk and JD!
Jack: yeah like shipping the two of them because
like oh they have this great chemistry together
and they clearly love each other as friends
but like oh maybe they could be boyfriends
too and like i... i think... you know shipping
queer relationships where they don't exist
in the canon of the tv show or the movie or
the books or something is awesome. that is
a huge thing i've done throughout my life
i think we need more queer representation.
i think it's great to kind of challenge that
idea here and there. um but also sometimes
i think it does a disservice to healthier
relationships like friendships that we could
see between men. like i think because it is
so rare to see men being like affectionate
and loving towards each other as friends if
you see a hint of that immediately you're
like oh they must be in love and not necessarily
in a homophobic way even in a you know a desiring
that kind of way and thinking that that would
be awesome, but like that that just sort of
perpetuates the myth that men can't be like
platonically loving to each other or what
have you you know? and so it's this this has
always frustrated me because i like am strongly
in support of both sides i guess.
Bo: yeah well since you since you bring that
up the the the example that comes to mind
for me is both. uh which is lord of the rings.
like sam and frodo i ship. i think they are
deeply in love, but lord of the rings is often
cited or at least the movies because i'm uncultured
and i haven't read all the books yet i'm like
halfway through the hobbit it's taking forever.
um
Jack: i'm halfway through two towers but i
have been for seven years
Bo: (laughs) it's it's a long haul guys. it's
just like it's like watching the expanded
editions but it's on paper! um but the movies
are heralded as examples of positive male
relationships because if you take out you
know the obvious like you know kind of tongue-in-cheek
stuff that people say about sam and frodo
um the relationship that you see between like
uh between like aragorn and legolas or legolas
and gimli and how aragorn gets super torn
up when boromir dies spoiler alert. um like
the way that they will touch each other and
hug each other and they'll cry when they think
that one of them has gotten hurt and everyone
mourns over gandalf when he falls off uh the
bridge in in the mines and it's like these
are more positive role models that you can
see and that you don't have to turn them into
a ship. it's just good friendship. it's good
companionship. it is uh-oh but say the title
of the movie fellowship
Jack: (laughs) of the ring. in case anyone
didn't get that. i i find that jokes are often
funnier when you explain them afterwards
Bo: (laughs) Oh man.
Jack: but no i mean--
Bo: a healthy dose of mansplaining
Jack: exactly that's how i really feel. i-you
know i think that's what a lot of people on
the internet are missing is there's just not
enough mansplaining there and i think it would
really help help twitter a lot
Bo: actually i think there's plenty of mansplaining
(beat)
Jack: (sarcastically) "actually." uh but anyways
you know i like i said i don't want to get
too deep in the weeds on that because i think
we could do a pretty great episode just on
that later um
Bo: yeah let's put a pin in that
Jack: yeah put a pin in that. we'll circle
back later.
Bo: (laughs darkly) ugh.
Jack: but what i do want to say is you know
the other thing that you were sort of touching
on um and certainly the article does about
how like typically a lot of men have needed
something else to get them to the point of
hanging out or or keeping in touch with each
other. like if that's going to see a game
or i really liked your comparison of going
to see a show because like yeah i also rarely
go to games. i certainly don't go over to
someone's house to watch the game on tv. um
but you know i will go to a show with them.
we'll go to a concert. um so yeah like that
or going to a bar or something and um i have
often said about myself that like my favorite
way of bonding with someone of like deepening
a friendship or keeping in touch like i would
go as far as to say like my "love language"
in a friendship platonic kind of love way
is like collaboration with people. um i like
working on projects and making something creative
with cool people and with my friends and it
wasn't until i read that article i started
being like oh maybe that's not as noble as
i thought. maybe that's my crutch, of like
that that's me not being able to just naturally
have friendships i'm i have to like pull this
other thing in uh and i don't know that i
consciously did that with this podcast but
i would say like what you were saying earlier
like i equally was like oh Bo's really cool
i want to be better friends with Bo but i
don't want to freak him out. uh and then at
some point we decided to do a podcast and
well that really worked out
Bo: thanks microphone!
Jack: (laughs) it's it's it's it's every like
man security blanket is it a podcast microphone
Bo: no that that's that's a good point because
like one thing that i've been thinking about
um a lot like not not even just since reading
this article but since the since the pandemic
is you know in some cases my friendships have
have gotten stronger and in other cases it's
just been exposed how much work needs to go
into them. um like i i think a lot about uh
my friends that i had--i still have them.
um sorry dear listeners i might get a little
sad boy here. um but like my really close
friends from texas i don't talk to as much
as as i should as i would like to and i think
part of that is is rooted in what like what
you just mentioned and these are guys that
i was in bands with uh or or at least in one
band for a good chunk of my high school years
and they're like you know my closest friends
i was spending every day with them. you know
we practiced every weekend if not more. and
then i left for college. and i tried to to
maintain the friendship but at some point
it just became too hard or i became too busy
or i just felt bad for moving and we kind
of drifted apart and so i'm just like because
of all this i'm just more aware than ever
i think of the work that i need to do to try
and rebuild those relationships um and the
work that that is currently doing like the
the the guy that played drums uh in that band
like he and i i never talk to people on the
phone. i hate hate talking on the phone. uh
you know i i--
Jack: podcast is fine apparently. phones no.
Bo: well here's the thing uh when i'm talking
on the phone i have to hold the thing and
i don't like having uh i don't like losing
like the use of an arm that is there it's
the weirdest thing but it's the same reason
why i don't like calling people while i'm
doing grocery shopping is because then i have--
Jack: oh i will not do that
Bo: and i don't like using umbrellas because
then i have an arm gone um
Jack: i finally came around to umbrellas but
it was a similar thing. but yeah i know i
i i am i guess i am actually weirder about
phone calls than i realize because i will
like only call people preferably if i'm just
like in my bedroom. like i don't like people
to overhear me. i will not do it in a public
space or if i'm with other people or grocery
shopping or something like no way.
Bo: yeah like i i am super weird about it
and it has to be exactly the right moment
and that sort of stuff but i've noticed that
i'm chipping away at some of those weirdnesses
uh with with my relationship to phone calls
because i've been talking to this guy more
often um it's it could still be more often
but more often than it has been. um on the
other end of things here in new york you know
i was i was in a band and i still i still
am in the band but we haven't played a show
in over a year and so the the relationship
there is something that we've had to kind
of like reimagine and i think that that kind
of comes uh brings in some of the solutions
you know or or evolutions that are brought
up in this article which is the fact that
we have group chat on facebook and we'll just
shoot the shit and just you know send each
other memes or videos or jokes and then every
once in a while though you will get the life
update. you know we'll get the chat dump.
and um i look forward to that because i don't
know even though so many of my friendships
were structured around "what's the activity?"
the activity taking place at least like laid
the groundwork for the conversations that
we could have. you know i i've thought of
my relationship with friendships with with
other men is kind of a hybridized version
of what this article talks about where i would
do the activity in order to get the face to
face. like i would i would go to the show
in order to have a deep meaningful conversation
after the show or something like that or and
or go to the bar in order to just like you
know really like get in deep and and have
like a real talk as i'm sure you can attest
(laughs) but--
Jack: yeah i was gonna say like i do love
ipas but i wasn't going to dive bars just
to have an overpriced ipa when we were hangin
out
Bo: exactly um and i think that that is you
know that that's kind of the the thing now
is now we're learning how to still get there
but in in different scenarios so like you
know a couple weeks will go by and we're just
like you know talking shit and ribbing each
other or whatever in this group chat and then
like something really cool will happen and
we'll have like a real conversation about
that thing. um and it's all good i'm not discounting
the other stuff i'm just saying that that
that's like uh that's like the the the finding
out that the chocolate bar you got is chocolate
and raspberry. you know that's the raspberry
filling.
Jack: wait so that's a good thing in your
book?
Bo: you don't like dark chocolate and raspberry?
Jack: i mean i i guess that sounds good but
in a candy bar i think i would just prefer
if it were just dark chocolate.
Bo: all right fair enough. different strokes
for different folks--
Jack: like a cake! that sounds like a great
cake.
Bo: yeah cool all right. that that's that's
like that's like getting a great slice of
cake and then you find out halfway through
that it's actually an ice cream cake.
Jack: oh yeah that's that's great!
Bo: yeah it is extra special. yeah so that's
what i'm saying is the group chat is the cake.
the moments where the group chat turns to
the deeper conversations and the stronger
connections that's the ice cream
Jack: wow. i i do want to ask you about um
something you brought up when we were discussing
this before we recorded um which is some of
and sounds like not your group chat but some
of the other ways um that we've been trying
to find solutions to maintain friendships
during this time um you were saying are a
little bit more... like they feel a little
bit more forced or maybe like transactional
in a way and i'm i'm curious your thoughts
on that because i think that i have been struggling
with that as well. um i so much more prefer
if i could just like grab coffee or a drink
with someone, drink with someone or like hang
out at their house. um i do not like like
video calls or group chats or like any of
the ways that we have to keep in touch with
people these days are things that i i get
basically nothing out of. like it doesn't
feel like any sort of replacement for me as
like hanging out with someone
Bo: yeah i guess i i guess that's the other
side of the coin to to this experience is
that like you know there are so many ways
and it's been like this before the pandemic
because we live in the internet age in many
ways we're more connected than we've ever
been it's easier than ever to like send somebody
a meme or do a video chat even before zoom
was like our primary form of communication
between one another and that sort of thing.
um but something about those during the pandemic
makes things feel and and i i definitely did
say transactional at first but i think that
that's not the that's not the right word.
it's just it's it's it's less organic. like
you know if i was if this was another time
and another time of year for that matter.
you know let's say it's a it's a beautiful
spring day and we're commuting. i just wrapped
up at work and i'm leaving my office building
and i'm like you know what i don't feel like
going home yet? i can text a friend that i
know works in the area or that i can get to
pretty quickly and say hey do you want to
meet up for a drink? and boom you have a plan.
and you're going to have that friendship experience.
and now it is a little bit harder to do that
not that there's a lot more going on but because
the general feeling of being mid pandemic,
hopefully mid pandemic, hopefully further
than mid, hopefully there's an end to it soon,
but the feeling of being in this moment makes
everything feel much more exhausting and yeah
it means that as as much as my phone my relationship
with the phone has improved there are days
where i'll see that somebody's calling and
i'm just like i just can't do this right now
Jack: yeah
Bo: and so that means that then in order to
maintain that relationship i'm gonna have
to get i'm gonna have to text that person.
i'm gonna have to set up a time for us to
do a video chat. i'm gonna have to then commit
to that and not not back out and it makes
the friendship feel um business-like you know?
and i feel i feel like such a dick even saying
this because--
Jack: yeah i i fully feel that way saying
all of this
Bo: like friendship isn't a chore whether
whether it's something that i'm scheduling
with you or one of my friends from back in
texas or even a family member. it's not a
it's not a chore. the fact that that person
is in my life is not a chore, but having to
go through all these steps just to see them
and just to connect with them, that makes
it feel like a chore. and so i feel like that
it's you know while we have all these great
opportunities in front of us to connect it
feels harder to connect and it drains you
a little bit more because you're already kind
of drained
Jack: yes, i mean i i think yeah you hit on
a lot of points that really resonated for
me. um i i have often described myself as
like a reluctant extrovert. like if i had
my way, without any concern for my own mental
health, i would be a hermit away in the woods
and hardly ever talk to anyone and be perfectly
happy for months on end. um i say perfectly
happy but then as soon as i like hang out
with people like you know face to face hanging
out with people i get a boost in my mood.
like so much. so i know that it's good for
me but i don't often enjoy the process of
like planning it out, especially when i'm
very busy um as my work life since the pandemic
began a year ago has been. like i've been
the busiest i've ever been in my life. and
that's really tough when so many other people
in the world are less busy than they've ever
been um and so like i get really overwhelmed
with the idea of having to schedule anything,
even if it's fun and with someone i love,
it's really stressful for me to have to plan
it. so i think those times before where it's
like oh i happen to have some free time let's
let's do this organically and like hang out
with people works better um but also i feel
like when you were planning things pre-pandemic
in a a non-virtual space there was a recognition
that like there's a lot of effort being put
into that. we're both having to like commute
to somewhere or something um and so like i
guess you were both gonna honor it more? or
honor the the level of a commitment it was.
whereas now like if someone asks you to do
a video call it's it's harder to get out of
because like you can't say oh i've i'm going
somewhere i will be out or like oh it's too
much because what you're just at home anyways
can't you get on this video call? um and so
that's been an additional like frustrating
thing to me but... one thing that i'm interested
in um is like you were talking about both
for you and in the article that we read all
of these ways that like men have actively
been working on getting better at this which
is something that i i should do. i'm just
clearly a cranky old man who wants to be left
alone and i should work on that because it's
not good for your mental health, for mine
or for anyone's. um but even in working on
it like it's so easy in this time to fall
back onto those bad habits. um and and to
just like revert to the wanting to be left
alone even when you know you should be engaging
with other people
Bo: yeah that's been, i don't know that that
that's been something that i've definitely
been been struggling with because of that
like extra feeling of of exhaustion, is that
like it's it's just it's just easier to not.
uh
Jack: yeah which is not good
Bo: Yeah it sucks um---
Jack: i'm not proud of that feeling
Bo: yeah
Jack: but i feel it very intensely
Bo: yeah so like while i've been, it's it's
it's so weird. this this situation has made
everything about life raw and and just like
you know very uh, like it's like fluorescent
lit you know? uh you can see you can see all
this all the flaws and all the rough patches
and all that kind of stuff that you might
not have noticed when when other things were
going on or whether rather when this situation
wasn't going on. so like as nice as it is
and as obvious as it is um to to have opportunities
to to to work on rebuilding and strengthening
and maintaining friendships, it is also very
clear all the bad habits that like helped
build the scaffolding for for you know whatever
your current relationship statuses, stati,
are. um so it's it's it's i don't know um
i don't know. i'm i'm i fear i'm veering veering
off into downer territory
Jack: yeah we're definitely-- i led us there.
don't worry. talking about building scaffolding,
i wrote-- i built this scaffolding for this
to be bummer territory
Bo: but it's it's it's fine because it's it's
worth confronting. like i've i've had a lot
of really meaningful friendships i've been
lucky in that in that regard um that have
been tougher to maintain and it wasn't the
pandemic that did it. it was everything that
i did up to the pandemic that did it. um and
you know i i hope that we're a year in you
know i keep on because time is rubbery sometimes
i realize that we're a year and other times
it feels like still the second week. um and
i think about it as like you know maybe i
can use this time to do x y and z. uh so long
as we're still here maybe i can still use
that time but i am also very aware of of the
fact that like you know there there's there's
habit that that built it's itself into this
and because you know it it's actually kind
of a weird full circle thing. it's tough for
men to embark on friendships because they're
worried about coming on too strong. i feel
like it's also tough for men to restart friendships
because once the habits are there once the
scaffolding is there that puts you at arm's
length. it's it's hard to break it down and
it's hard to, it's hard to have them have
the momentum to break it down because you
don't want to come on too strong, at least
that's that's my experience. i i feel like
if if i can make a quick um not segue, tangent.
if i can do a quick tangent
Jack: go for it
Bo: i want to reiterate what what people who
are who have listened to our episodes are
should hopefully know already and that we're
not we're not experts by any means
Jack: (chuckles) yeah
Bo: a lot of the stuff that we talk about
is we saw some stuff that experts wrote about
or or or you know we learned something from
an expert and then we're just riffing on personal
experience but then i also want to highlight
something that you said earlier about um you
know we have all this, we should have all
this down time because we're we're at home
and you said you made a very pointed uh effort
to say i guess not not everybody is like that
uh so i i want to like acknowledge the fact
that we're both speaking from this this weird
place of privilege and the fact that yeah
we've have we have been working at home. i
i do wonder what it's like for people who
have been serving staff at bars that have
been opening and then closing then opening
and then closing or people who work at grocery
stores or postal workers or construction workers
or any of those other uh fields where they're
deemed essential and they've been they've
been going into work. and you know maybe their
relationships are a little bit different because
they've been seeing people that they would
see every day, still to to a degree every
day. um so me i don't know. i don't know where
i'm going with that i just kind of want to
acknowledge it, but it does it does bring
in bring to mind an interest an interesting
potential like socio-economic class aspect
that we might be grappling with for the next
five to ten years.
Jack: from the people i know who you know
are essential workers and have been working
on and off if not this whole time um the impression
i have is that overall it's still lonely uh
and maybe in part because the the dominant
narrative is that people are home and bored
and it's like that is not everyone's reality
so you feel kind of cut out of that um and
still like under appreciated um and you know
not having access to your social life aspect
of things, even if you're being you know you're
having to go into work. but one thing that
maybe is happening in some of those situations
is uh those weaker ties of social relationships
um that you and i were talking about from
another article that we found, an article
in the atlantic talking about how there's
like whole categories of friendship that are
gone now and the main one that this article
talks about is those sorts of you know it's
not quite friendship maybe depending on the
type of person you are you would define it
friendship or not but it's like co-workers
or like people that you see every day but
you don't necessarily know like someone who
goes to the gym at the same time as you um
and just sort of those chance encounters that
a lot of people are not having that anymore
and like what's the effect going to be on
those people who are not having that? and
is there any benefit um that people who are
still getting those experiences that they're
getting from that?
Bo: yeah that that that's a good point. it
is it is really weird... you know one of the
things that has changed since we did our last
episode is i actually started a new job. um
which is very exciting but it feels super
weird starting a new job right now um because
like the people that i've met i can tell are
awesome and i'm super duper looking forward
to working with them but it's lacking that
like water cooler feeling or that ability
to like walk over to somebody's desk to ask
them a question or that just like running
into them in the hall and and you know it's
it's strange to to say that you're missing
small talk because i know the cool kid thing
is to hate small talk, but at the same time
like these are um basic elements of human
interaction that provides so much structure
and they make you feel seen they make other
people feel seen. it's it's it's it's actually
kind of weird like you're talking about how
like you could live in a hermit, you could
live as a hermit in somewhere in the woods
by yourself and be totally fine and in my
head i was like i could probably do that too
but i wouldn't necessarily be fine so much
as that i wouldn't know that i wasn't fine.
and it's like--
Jack: i mean that might be more accurate to
my experience as well
Bo: it's like i kind of imagine that uh some
of these interactions of of like the weaker
ties and the acquaintances and that sort of
thing it's it's almost like um... if you imagine
reading a comic book without the without the
inks and without the outlines... like how
weird would superman look without that thick
black border that defines you know where he's
where he stops and where the background begins?
and i feel like for some of our interactions
um these relationships with people who are
acquaintances and might be just part of your
daily routines, like i actually like the example
of the person that you see at the gym every
day uh because they just happen to be at the
same time. like that's part of your rhythm.
and like when you're missing that even something
that seems so innocuous and so you know um
what's what's another i don't know why i need
another synonym for innocuous. i do this all
the time i already said the word i don't need
an extra word to say the word. uh but when
when you're missing something that's that
uh basic um... it can just it can just kind
of like throw you off your game.
Jack: yeah i the one of the hardest things
for me or like the thing that i missed the
most when the pandemic first started was uh
the bar trivia that i host every monday. that
was for a lot of reasons but the biggest thing
that kept hitting me in my head was i was
going to miss all of the servers at the bar
who like i didn't have their numbers. i don't
know their last name. like i had no way to
contact them and maybe that was part of it
was just like it was kind of like they were
just gone but like i like they were great.
they're some of my favorite people. i loved
seeing them every week and like i would stop
in the bar when i wasn't hosting just so i
could maybe see them if they were on a shift.
um like we formed great relationships over
the years of me hosting there and then they
were just gone. uh and unfortunately that
that bar has weathered the storm and they
were able to like keep everyone on or like
hire them back and stuff and so i have seen
some of them again and that was like the best
feeling ever when i got to see a few of them
last fall but yeah it's sort of those those
weaker ties. like i wouldn't really i i guess
because again i feel like they would think
i am weird of like if i called them my friend
um but they were people that were in my life
and an important part of my life and then
all of a sudden they were just gone
Bo: yeah and i i just want to, so we keep
on saying weaker ties the title of the article
uh is "the pandemic has erased entire categories
of friendship" and that's by amanda mull in
the atlantic and the weaker ties thing that
she brings up is a coin, is a phrase that
another uh a sociologist coined at some point
in the 70s. so we're not trying to say that
these are weak ties. it's just the term that
somebody applied to these types of relationships
um but it's it's it's really interesting to
think about you know how how we miss those
sorts of things um and you know again like
that's something that you don't get in your
zoom calls! that's something you don't get
there's there's no background noise. there
are there's no there's no crowd. there's no
um you know it's actually funny so so... way
way way back in the day i took uh a course
that was like i can't remember what it's called...
i'm going to i'm going to call it anthropology
of religion. it wasn't called that but it
was an anthropology course about religion
and there's this concept that got brought
up in it called collective effervescence and
that's uh bas-- the the way i remember being
described is like when you are... because
it was a religion course when you're when
you're at a religious service of some sort
and you feel moved to join in the group. so
like even if you're kind of agnostic and you
go to like a catholic mass and they start
doing a hymn that just totally slaps and you
start singing the hymn even though you're
not super religious that's an example of it
but then it got broadened out to like you're
not a sports fan but you end up finding yourself
at a football game and someone does a really
beautiful play and the crowd goes wild and
then next thing you you realize is you are
in the crowd and you are also going wild.
uh it's these kind of... collective experiences
that have a habit of of kind of pulling you
into them. and uh these are the things that
we're missing right now. so even these quote
unquote weaker ties of of people that you
see at the bar, of people that you see at
the gym, of people that you run into in the
hallway. we're missing that greater sense
of collectivity
Jack: i love that that. i mean that's a great
phrase. collective effervescence. i love the
word effervescence. but that feeling uh at
least as you illustrated it like i i have
felt that so many times uh and i think that
is maybe one reason why i like really have
had some trouble with um all of these virtual
replacements because for me it was so often
i did not have an interest in whatever the
main activity was or something like that i
just wanted to be with people um and even
not necessarily participating as like talking
to everyone there, just sort of being there
and being in the vibes with everyone else
who was there.and now when it's like a virtual
thing it is much more about the thing and
everyone takes their turn talking and like
that sort of you know? it's very and that's
regimented. and it's harder to just be like
yeah
Bo: regimented! that's the word! that, it's
not transactional. not forced. not a chore.
regimented. thank you!
Jack: yeah i mean like i'm so i'm notorious
for like following falling asleep at gatherings
(both laugh) um and i think this should be
received as a compliment personally. uh because
it's like i it's that i'm just like comfortable
being with my friends. it's like i am at this
thing because i love and care about all of
you and want to spend time with you, um not
because like i only came because i like this
movie that we're watching or something but
screw all of you. like no i'm there because
i wanna be with people and be with you people
specifically and that's a harder feeling to
achieve virtually
Bo: yeah
Jack: also it's much more obvious if you fall
asleep on a zoom call then in the corner of
a room
Bo: (laughs) the chat just starts lighting
up and it's the it's a letter n over and over
and over
(laughs)
Jack: oh we we should start wrapping this
up but i wanted to bring up one more thing
sort of on the note of kind of like checking
our privilege um and this could be specific
to me. i have a hunch that it's not, but you
know when we were talking about maybe doing
this episode i was trying to reflect and be
like are like, have i been keeping in touch
less--- and actually this is the point is
not on me but people who have been reaching
out to me and trying to keep in touch like,
what is the gender break down here? and there
are definitely uh some like men in my life
who have been making an effort here and there
um as you and i were talking about we're trying
to make efforts, but the ones who have done
it either naturally or intentionally, regularly
are all like women and non-binary people.
um and those are the people that are like
maintaining these friendships and as much
as like maybe i do want to be this isolated
hermit or something as we were discussing,
like i know that it is good for me to continue
being in touch with people and hanging out
with them virtually or going for walks or
whatever um and yet again, at least for a
lot of people i know, it seems to be like
the women or other marginalized genders who
are doing the emotional labor here and the
work, of like men are in some cases benefiting
from that without maybe doing as much of it.
uh and so that's a thing that i need to reckon
with and remember in my own life and maybe
be a bit more proactive uh in reaching out
to people as well and not just waiting for
people in my life to reach out to me because
inevitably it's it's often like people who
are already doing the other emotional labor
in other aspects of their life
Bo: yeah that's that's a that's a really good
point to highlight. like so you know dear
listeners i'm married so i i live with a person
i'm never entirely alone. uh so long as i'm
i'm here and i'm one of those cheese balls
who lucked out and married his best friend.
so like i have one friendship that is really
strong and will always be really strong um
but i think that um it's become evident that
basically you know my wife had to do the additional
emotional labor long before this of letting
me know that i suck at being a friend to my
other friends
Jack: Whoa
Bo: and like honestly that that i feel like
that's one of the best things about having
a best friend is that a a a a good friend
will be like a friend friend tends to be like
supportive all the time and a good friend
will call you out a little bit and a best
friend will call you out when you need it
you know? and so part of what i'm trying to
do and what i should be trying a lot harder
to do in maintaining friendships is being
reminded by this person and this actually
came up in the the the first article that
we were talking about that uh men who were
married or in long-term relationships for
a lot of them that was kind of like that's
the goal is is you you found your partner
and that's the only pro-- the other the only
other person you need in your life. and my
wife has reminded me that that's not a healthy
way to to go about things.
Jack: yeah
Bo: that you know you need other people and
other people need you in in in in their lives
in some way or another um. so i'm i i guess
i'm i'm sorry that she had to do yet another
bit of emotional labor uh but i think i think
that i'm not entirely sure where i'm where
i'm going with this but uh it it is something
that is kind of on us as men to be aware of
that and to you know at least try to meet
people halfway so that folks who are already
drained and are already maintaining friendships
don't have to do the additional steps of reminding
you that you have friendships that you need
to that you need to maintain
Jack: yeah you know
Bo: does that make sense?
Jack: no totally. yeah because and it's it's
not always on gender lines it's different
types of personalities and different things
people are going through too, but i i did
just feel like it was maybe important to bring
up like you know we we talked a lot about
relationships of of men together (chuckles)
male-male friendships um but you know men
can and should have relationships with people
of other genders too. um
Bo: right
Jack: and think about those dynamics but uh
to end just on a little bit more of a lighthearted
note uh this has reminded me of---this is
going to be total not even humble bragging
but just like bragging here but i was at uh
an event several years ago hosted by the obama
foundation and so the obamas were there and
barack obama was sitting in the audience watching
things and michelle was on stage um being
interviewed by someone i forgot who was interviewing
her but they started talking about um friendships
and they got on a thing about how men suck
at having friendships. uh i think maybe it
started with like, you know you know michelle
of how he handled all the pressures of being
first lady and all the things that you have
to do? and she was talking about like her
girlfriends and and how they're a great support
for her and then that kind of transitioned
into like literally calling out barack in
the audience and just being like, you have
one friend! like get it together. you need
more friends. like she was just calling him
out from the stage to the point the moderator
was like okay uh okay. but it was hilarious
and it was just it was uh i think it was also
just funny to see him get called out on something
that clearly a lot of men have--are not great
at
Bo: dude they did a whole movie about it!
uh i love you man like--
Jack: Oh yeah. i never saw it
Bo: oh oh it's fantastic! um but it it i mean
it doesn't you know maybe maybe it doesn't
quite get into this concept the way that we
are but it's true that i feel like--i guess
i can't say it's true with a blanket you know
men are not a monolith um but i do think that
it is across across some some part of the
board uh harder for men to maintain meaningful
friendships because we just feel like we don't
need them and we kind of forget to take care
of ourselves in that way. so... you know my
my homework is to to keep at it and you know
i recognize that i'm exhausted but so is everyone
else and you know whatever... i like to think
at least like a little bit goes a long way.
whatever shred you can manage whether that's
replying to a text or actually having a phone
call or or even just like, i don't know...
memes are funny. um when we were talking kind
of in the in the in the pre-show one of the
things that you brought up was like how how
meme groups can become kind of toxic and like
you know really uh really bro-y and really
insulated, which is true, but i also think
that meme groups and other affinity groups
like you know as a musician like brands that
do stuff about their gear or something like
that, it gives you something that you can
send to a friend and even if it's just something
that it takes you moving your thumb twice
to do, it lets them know that you're thinking
about them. and it that that that can you
know that won't that won't fix your friendship.
that won't necessarily strengthen it, but
it will probably help keep it from falling
apart.
Jack: yeah. i i i do a lot of that. i think
you can always tell that like you have entered
a certain circle of of my friendship when
you get late night random links and memes
to things. um i used to do a lot more of it
actually. i but i always feel kind of like
you know when your grandma would cut things
out of the newspaper and send them to you
in the school mail. I feel like this the modern
equivalent of doing that, which to me is like
a huge sign of yeah like a sign of deep love.
it's like i i'm thinking about you and i think
that you would like this and i want you to
see it
Bo: mhmm. well, dudes, send the memes. have
the phone calls. don't stretch yourself too
thin. it's okay but you know you need you
need people. it's okay to need people.
Jack: yeah even the most introverted or ones
who want to just go live in the woods as a
hermit uh need people too and we gotta remember
that and it's part of taking care of ourselves
Bo: for the record i think you'd make a great
hermit
Jack: thank you i think so too
Bo: like i i think you'd be one of those hermits
that like never fully loses his humanity,
just enjoys the solitude and then like when
a horror movie happens next door and you find
yourself having to like take in a bloody teenager
or something like that you'll be the guy who
fought, who fends off the the the killer
Jack: wow that is such a high compliment,
thank you,
Bo: yeah with like a shovel or something like
that oh my god!
Jack: the shoveler!
Bo: the--well yes the shoveler from mystery
men, but also i'm thinking of the old dude
from home alone
Jack: Hmmmm yeah
Bo: that's that's a good non-toxic hermit,
at least by the end of the movie because he
is so isolating but when when he like you
know when he comes to kevin's aid-spoiler
again-and eventually reconnects with his son
like i feel like that's a good that's a good
thing to aim for
Jack: yeah yeah for sure. i was thinking of
like luke from gilmore girls because i just
finished re-watching all that
Bo: yeah luke from gilmore girls is a king.
like--
Jack: i know. goals.
Bo: like hands down like yeah could he be
a little bit more sensitive here and there?
could he be a little bit more uh?
Jack: He makes mistakes yeah
Bo: yeah exactly but he learns from them.
he picks up his baseball cap, dusts it off,
puts it back on on backwards and then like
you know makes pancakes with a wrench
(laughs)
Jack: (sighs) all right i uh i i think we
like ended on really inspirational notes here
and there and then always took it back to
a completely weird place, which i love. let's
go full weird now and move on to just the
tip.
(music and countdown play)
Jack: so just the tip, for anyone listening
for the first time is our opportunity, because
we haven't been talking for an hour already,
it is our opportunity uh to air anything that
we've been feeling this week, get something
off of our chest, but we don't want to go
too wild with it get too carried away. we
each get just one minute uh to just like...
wha- brush the surface? is that a phrase?
i'm trying to--
Bo: skim the surface?
Jack: skim the surface! and get just the tip
of a point. we're not going to dive in like
full episode hour length but just one minute
of uh something that you want to bring to
the table so are you ready?
Bo: i am ready
Jack: go!
Bo: all right so what i'm going to talk about
very briefly is the fact that i (deep voice)can
not wait for it to get warm again. do you
hear me out there? i cannot wait. whoever
controls the weather because i sometimes believe
government conspiracies like that just just
just just flip the switch. um and it makes
me feel bad because i should enjoy you know
winter and the fact that i live in a place
that actually experiences seasons and that
sort of stuff but usually by the time it's
mid-february which is when we're recording
this i'm just like flat out done. the days
are too short. i can't go outside. i can't
even run. i don't want to exercise at all.
all i want to do is sit in my little room,
drink, and eat stuff that is bad for me and
i just you know this sounds grumpy and ranty
but i want to flip the-- flip ,reverse the
polarity real quick and just say that i'm
really hopeful for spring. um during year
one of the pandemic one of the things that
really uh helped me get through was that shift--(alarm
sounds)
Jack: time is up!
Bo (speaking quickly) when we got into spring
and summer and everything was warm and even
though it was still really bad we could go
outside at least!
Jack: there you go. summed it up real good
at the end there. i was like watching the
timer go down and you were at like five seconds
when you were like but to flip it to a positive
side. i'm like no no positivity allowed in
just the tip! it is. positivity is always
allowed you can express whatever emotion you
want during your one minute ,which you you
uh went for the breadth of emotions there
Bo: oh it's because you know i i've realized
um during this time that i'm one of those
people that sometimes doesn't--they don't
feel one thing they feel everything at once
and so sometimes you just kind of have to
have to grab things as they flip by
Jack: yeah
Bo: it's like my emotions are like a school
of fish
Jack: wow (swishing sound with mouth) and
then nothing?
Bo: sometimes actually yeah. oh that's another
episode. we'll get into ennui another day
folks. uh all right are you ready?
Jack: yeah
Bo: okay
Jack: tell me when
Bo: your time begins now!
Jack: um yeah i i'm just i just i'm gonna
go super meta um i have been trying to think
all day of what i want to fill this one minute
with and i got nothing. um just like at the
top of the show i didn't know what to say
about what i have done since october and when
people ask me what i've been up to i don't
know what to say. i will sometimes mention
some work that i've been doing uh i don't
know what else to say. i think because most
of what i am doing in my life is work and
then maybe i'll watch a tv episode at the
end of the night and like that's kind of my
life right now and i'm mostly fine with that
um but yeah i maybe this is my version of
like hitting a wall in the pandemic is just
like not really knowing uh not really having
anything that i'm very excited about i guess
is maybe part of it and it's not quite to
the point of bugging me except when i am prompted
to discuss something and i guess maybe it's
what we were saying about um being more free
to (high pitched squeaking noise)-- say that---oh
no
(squeaking continues)
Bo: oh my god how do i make it stop? how do
I make it stop?!
Jack: (laughing) it really does sound like
uh like a sped up version of a tape rewinding
or something. what?
Bo: supposedly it's r2d2
Jack: oh! yeah it's a very tinny version of
r2d2
Bo: yeah it's coming on my phone speaker.
don't sue us disney!
Jack: disney well... i don't know the mouse
is always watching. i was gonna say that they're
definitely not listening but they probably
are. (exhales)
all i was getting to at the end there was
just uh you know the idea of like similar
to how it's kind of okay to say that you're
not okay right now uh like why do we have
to ask (laughs) how people are doing? i guess
but something like that like i just... i'm
fine but i don't want to like have to come
up with something for people
Bo: yeah i i i get that
Jack: like i like there's not anything exciting
happening in my life and that's okay
Bo: yeah exactly we don't we don't have to
be coming up with like content to entertain
our friends and other relationships with necessarily.
um it's just it's enough to be there it's
enough to it's enough to be trucking along.
um i think is is something that that we can
we could stand to work on and internalize
uh we don't always have to have big news or
or something you know terrible happen that
we can commiserate about. sometimes it's it's
it's enough to just be there
Jack: oh man i'm just realizing this is kind
of going back to our main segment so i won't
get into this too long but um like again the
regimented thing of virtual hangouts and textual
interactions the like, how are you? what have
you been up to? is like much more present.
like that happens at you know parties and
other gatherings too but there's so many more
people there and it's a bit more fluid. like
it would be very common for me to go to a
gathering with more than just two people where
i never really mentioned anything that i've
been up to because like my turn didn't come
because there weren't turns there was just
natural conversation happening. whereas now
we have very much like we're on the zoom call
and we go one by one and you talk about what
you're doing it's like my job is producing
content. i don't want to produce content for
this conversation about my life
Bo: i mean honestly, to to be real with you
that's why i use that meta that analogy, is
like you you you are a content producer. you
don't have to have that pressure in your daily
interactions too.
Jack: yeah let me just sit and listen to how
you're all doing. i want to hear about your
life. tell me more about what you're up. to
that would be great.
Bo: jack will be pioneering the new lurker
mode in zoom and google meets and--
Jack: give me lurker mode on every social
media platform. i was thinking about this
with clubhouse earlier today. i was like i
mean i don't find that many discussions that
i really want to join on clubhouse anyways.
there's they're really trying to they got
to break through the bro culture happening
there. uh but when i do i'm like scared to
join because people can see your avatar and
that you're in the room and i don't want people
to know that i'm in the room and also what
if they call on me to talk? i don't want to
talk on one of those calls! i just want to
listen. like the fact that there's all these
think pieces about social media going into
this audio only format. first of all where's
the accessibility in that? and second i don't
like people hearing me say things! i understand
i'm saying this on a podcast right now, but
like (laughter) apart from that. i don't,
in a non-content producing way. i don't like
people overhearing what i have to say and
so i would not join an audio conversation-based
kind of social media platform. this was apparently
my real just the tip
Bo: yeah jeez we got we got we got a double
dose of tip there um
(Jack laughs)
Jack: yeah this is apparently---what we've
been talking about is we think that we have
no emotions or nothing to say or don't want
to talk to people and then we've eventually
got a crack down under the surface to find
it apparently
Bo: yeah yeah
Jack: deep deep through that half a mile of
ice where they found those ancient sea critters
Bo: I'm sorry, what?
Jack: that's a very niche headline to reference.
Bo: Yeah, I'm gonna need you to send me that
headline.
Jack: i'll put that in the show notes too
Bo: yes please do. uh but yeah i think i think
you know it all kind of comes full circle.
you know men in a lot of ways we have work
to do in how we maintain our friendships,
but society because men are not a monolith
and neither is anybody else society um we
could stand to re-examine what we think a
friendship in a relationship constitutes.
it doesn't have to be this ex---this exchange
of of news. maybe it's just enough to sit
next to somebody, when we can, and maybe it's
just enough to send something that means that
we're thinking about somebody since we can't.
and i don't know if i'm trying to think of
something poignant to end on but it's not
really kind of
Jack: no that's--
Bo: but that's okay!
Jack: yeah also that was fairly poignant.
um more more than i would get. i definitely
took on the role of uh grumpy old man in this
in this episode.
Bo: i'd like to say old man with a point.
Jack: you calling my head pointy?
Bo: yes yes i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm mocking your
appearance
Jack: as you do. you uh you're always mocking
people's appearances, Bo Méndez, that is
who you are.
Bo: not unless they're ted cruz
Jack: well, had to end on that note. um folks
at home try to guess what day we're recording
this podcast. unfortunately i bet you can't
because i doubt what we saw today is the last
of it
Bo: yeah i hate ted cruz every day.
Jack: i mean yeah of course. uh well on that
note i suppose we should go um thank you all
so much for listening to this very long podcast.
our last episode was very long too. i'm gonna
use the excuse this time that we haven't uh
talked in podcast form or as friends for quite
a while um and so it gets to be this long
and hopefully people enjoyed listening and
are still listening here at the end. if you
are, thanks for sticking around. if you want
to send us any of your thoughts uh you can
send us a message at biggerpod on twitter
or instagram or you can email us at everythingsbigger69
at gmail dot com or you could leave a rating
and review on apple podcasts. that's a way
to give us some feedback but also to help
us out and help more people find the podcast
by sort of raising its profile in the rankings.
or if you're like, i just want to talk to
one of you specifically, bo how can they do
that?
Bo: uh you can find me at the handle "el"
underscore "enmascarabo." that's enmascara
bo with a b. not a d as in proper spanish.
or you can find jack at jack is not a bird
Jack: bo do you have any final thoughts or
did we just decide that neither of us are
capable of final thoughts tonight?
Bo: well i i think the final thought is that
we should we uh we don't necessarily always
have to come up with something. we don't necessarily
always have to uh have to produce something
in that sense and maybe our relationships
would be stronger um when we have an opportunity
you know in terms of global scenarios but
also in terms of uh what we allow ourselves
uh what we give ourselves slack for uh to
not necessarily have to have to produce something
and to just let things be. uh but but mainly
thank you for for as always taking the time
to to do this with me. um and also for for
doing so much of the of the backend of finding
a nifty new tool to to do things through uh
online and in the isolated conditions
(music begins to play)
so yeah thank you yeah hopefully this this
turns out well
Jack: yeah thank you for taking the time too.
thanks for having this conversation with me.
it's always good and self-enlightening if
that's a phrase
Bo: Indeed.
(music plays out