People are declaring it Short King Spring so consider this episode our coronation ceremony. We're vaxed, waxed, and ready to ask for help reaching that thing off the high shelf... but in a sexy way. Short hosts Bo Méndez and Jackson Bird discuss their opinions on the term "short king." Is it empowering? Is it patronizing? How does its usage intersect with gendered assumptions placed on us and how much has being short men impacted us in our lives? One thing's for sure: this episode is not a short king. Buckle in for a long one.
People are declaring it Short King Spring so consider this episode our coronation ceremony. We're vaxed, waxed, and ready to ask for help reaching that thing off the high shelf... but in a sexy way.
Short hosts Bo Méndez and Jackson Bird discuss their opinions on the term "short king." Is it empowering? Is it patronizing? How does its usage intersect with gendered assumptions placed on us and how much has being short men impacted us in our lives? One thing's for sure: this episode is not a short king. Buckle in for a long one.
Watch the video version with closed captions at https://youtube.com/c/everythingsbigger
Access the transcript and more at everythingsbigger.simplecast.com
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Bo
twitter.com/blackwork_1
instagram.com/blackwork1
Jack
twitter.com/jackisnotabird
instagram.com/jackisnotabird
youtube.com/jackisnotabird
Stuff we mentioned:
Fake Jeopardy https://twitter.com/fake_jeopardy
The original Jaboukie tweet https://twitter.com/jaboukie/status/1014588640171831296
Bo: So the other day I was, despite not having a social media job anymore, I still hop onto Twitter like way too often. And because I like mentioned Jeopardy once, Twitter's new thing is to recommend stuff based off of like your likes and follows and topics and, and it sucks. And it just gives you more and more crap. But every once in a while, there'll be an absolute gem, because it recommended to me this account called, like I mentioned Jeopardy like once or twice when I was actually on Jeopardy. And it re recommended to me fake Jeopardy stories, which is @fake_jeopardy, which is a wonderful, wonderful one account. 'Cause what it does is it takes those little intro blurbs that every Jeopardy contestant does and riffs on them and just like, you know, totally knocks on each contestant like an insult comic, it's amazing. Of course me being a little bit of a narcissist, I will admit this, I had to look up mine and I found this delightful gem, which took, I talked about this podcast during my introduction.
Jack: Which is amazing. We got prime time network TV advertising.
Bo: Yeah, we also got a confused, "Okay." From Ken Jennings.
Jack: Yeah, you confused Ken Jennings. That is quite the feat.
Bo: I stumped the stumper. But if you, if we can maybe link this in the episode description, but it shows the picture of the three of us and my like, you know, riffed on quote is, "I host a podcast about toxic masculinity "and we haven't interviewed one woman during its entire run. "Oops." Granted in our defense, this is episode like, I don't know, six, I haven't been counting, so.
Jack: Eight, but I also thought we had less episodes.
Bo: I think it's because they're few and far between, and also they feel just so much like our regular conversations that we can't really differentiate what we did and did not record, so.
Jack: That is true.
Bo: I chalk that up as a win. So yeah, that's all to say we're working on it.
Jack: Well, yeah. I mean, yeah. I think when we were originally like planning out the show and talking about it, we were like, we specifically only wanted to maybe have men on, or like, you know, masculine leaning folks. But I don't know, that was just sort of like, like once I saw that tweet, I started being like, "Yeah, that would be a good perspective to have." But I feel like, you know, one, we don't just talk about toxic masculinity, that's not the whole point. But two, I think there's a very different thing. Like having two men talking about toxic masculinity and not talking to any women is very different than like a bunch of old men convening to discuss women's rights.
Bo: Pretty much.
Jack: There's a difference there.
Bo: Totally, totally valid critique, but still not as bad as it could be. But yeah, like I think it's a good idea to keep in mind other perspectives that we can bring in. At the moment we're still just two dudes talking to each other about dude things. We barely even talk about toxic masculinity at this point, we're mostly talking about pop culture, but you know, it always pops up in there. But I suppose we can lodge an invitation of, dear listeners, if you know any women, non-binary or otherwise non-gender conforming folks, or gender nonconforming folks that might want to share their experiences of interacting with masculinity, we're all open to it.
Jack: Yeah, definitely. Especially 'cause we produce so many episodes of this show.
Bo: Yeah.
Jack: And have had guests before.
Bo: Yeah.
Jack: It is something that we are prepared to do.
Bo: Let's take advantage of our high output volume.
Jack: Yeah, exactly. You know, I mean, we're just scraping the bottom of the barrel, trying to come up with content, 'cause we've put out so many episodes at this point.
Bo: We're out of ideas. Oh man. Welcome back, it's good to be back.
Jack: Heck yeah.
Bo: Hello, and welcome to Everything's Bigger.
Jack: A podcast about masculinity for dudes of all genders who ask, "Why?"
Bo: And given that this is after such a long time, it's like, it's worth noting that masculinity is a lot like time in the fact that it's a social construct, we made it all up. We ascribed it to stuff that doesn't care about what we think about it, yet it doesn't make it any less real.
Jack: I love that. Well, I'm Jackson Bird.
Bo: And I'm Bo Mendez.
Jack: And today we are talking about ... That was my drum roll.
Bo: Love it.
Jack: It is time for Short King Spring.
Bo: Short King Spring.
Jack: Yeah, I like that. This is what the internet, all the media outlets on the internet are saying that it is Short King Spring. They're like, you know, like Hot Girl Summer, or Hot Vaxxed Summer was another one. And now it is Short King Spring.
Bo: Our time has come.
Jack: Finally. Surprisingly, as two people with a podcast about overthinking things, we are not just overjoyed. We've got some more thoughts on it as two short men, Short Kings. So we're gonna dive into that before. But first as we kind of said, this is our first episode in over a year.
Bo: Yeah, it's been a time.
Jack: I was just checking back on the podcast apps to see the last time we actually did put up an episode and it was March 2021. But dear listener, we did actually record another episode. I think we actually recorded that episode in like three different bursts because we kept having tech issues. And that is part of why it never went out. The only part that really got salvaged ended up being, I think, us talking about how good the jackets in Falcon and Winter Soldier were.
Bo: And granted, they were strong jackets in that show that came out a year ago.
Jack: I stand by it, yeah. Yeah, really dates us of exactly where we were when that was happening. But we also, we were, we recorded part of that episode on the roof of your old apartment. So talking about things that have changed in the past year, you moved.
Bo: Yes, I'm coming to you live from a very different place. I have left the storied borough of Brooklyn and the city of New York behind and moved far, far, far away to Philadelphia. It's actually not that far, yay.
Jack: It feels far to me.
B: Yeah, I mean we haven't, we haven't gotten to see each other much since then, although you were our very first house guest, so we've been, we've still been able to do things and we had an entire October full of just delightful spooky goodness that maybe we can talk about on the future episode even, because we got to do a lot of cool stuff. But yeah.
J: One of my friends was like, "Do you realize you're spending "every weekend in October with Bo? "Is that just like what you do?" I was like, "Oh, it wasn't on purpose, "but we love Halloween."
B: We do love Halloween. And we got to hang out a lot and Sloane was there and she loves Halloween too. And we just like made kind of an ongoing thing of October here in Philadelphia and the general surrounding Pennsylvania and also parts of upstate New York area. And it was super duper fun.
J: This is a great area for Halloween, I've gotta say.
B: Oh yeah, because it actually like gets fallish and like every other building is haunted. It's delightful. But yeah, so like I moved. And I have, I feel, I still feel some kind of way about it. We're coming up on almost a year since we've been there. And I will say that while I miss New York and like New York is a storied place that being a kid growing up in a smallish town in Texas, it's like, you see it on the movies and TV and it has like this kind of like mystique ascribed to it. It still has all that, but I gotta say, Philly is really growing on me. It's, you know, it's got a lot of heart, it's got a very strong identity. It knows what it is as a city, I think. And it kind of fights for itself. And I really respect that. Plus cheese steaks.
J: As a lactose intolerant person, I will never quite know the joy of the cheese steak.
B: There's a really good vegan cheese steak place down the street from us, actually.
J: Of course there is.
B: They do a Calabrian chili vegan cheese sauce, and that stuff is so good that I shit you not, they sell it by itself in bottles.
J: Wow.
B: Yeah.
J:Mm, that's amazing.
B: We'll have to test your spice tolerance and get you one of those at some point, it's an experience. But that's what's new on my end. What has going on with you over the past year? I hear that there is some new involvement on your horizon.
J: Yeah.
B: New projects.
J: Yeah, yeah, new projects. I mean, in some ways, nothing new, I'm still making a podcast every single day for the time being, which I've been doing since the start of the pandemic and it feels a little bit like Groundhog day. Sometimes I wake up on Saturdays and I'm like, "I gotta make a pod- "Ooh, no podcast today." I love doing it. And it's been a really amazing experience. Genuinely love it so much. But yeah, it's been, especially during lockdown times, it's just like, "Wow, this is a very repetitive kind of task." But other than that, I have also, I just joined a off, off Broadway experimental theater troupe.
B: Yes, it's the wave of the future.
J: Yeah, it feels very New York. I had been thinking about wanting to move for a while myself, but I am here in New York, New York City experiencing some of those vibes you were talking about a minute ago of how there's just always so much going on here. Nothing sort of makes you feel that more than being a part of, you know, a community with a long history in New York City like this theater troupe does. So even though I am not performing in it until later this summer, just getting into it and learning about the history and having this whole new networking community of people and artists to be a part of has been really cool. And I guess, I mean, I can say what it is. The press release went out today when we were recording, but it's called the Neo Futurists, The New York Neo Futurists. And they do shows every Friday and Saturday in the East Village. So if anyone ever wants to come out, I'm not in the show every week, but I'll be there a lot in the second half of the year. And they do a lot of other cool stuff too. And they also have a podcast called Hit Play. So if you wanna get a sense of what it's about, but you're not coming to New York City any time, you should check out the podcast, which I might be on at some point too.
B: Ooh, the little teaser action. That's awesome. For our etymologically inclined friends, neo means new, futurist refers to one who believes in a future, which is a time that exists beyond the current point of time in which we are in, which at this point may or may not actually happen.
J: Yeah. I've taken to referring to time on my daily podcast, The Cool Stuff Ride Home by being like, "Time, if you still subscribe to that." So I was really vibing with your description of like masculinity as a social construct as compared to time, which is also a social construct.
B: Yeah.
J: Because like, you know, I feel like for the past two years, everyone has just been like, "What's time, what is time?"
B: You know, time happens, but the fact that it's 24 hours in a day, why is it, why isn't it 25? Why didn't we do, why didn't go base 10? Like it's terrible, ugh.
J: Base 10 is great.
B: Yeah.
J: But actually, you know what? I most like base 12 for counting and stuff.
B: Okay, well.
J: Yeah, 'cause there are, I mean, there are answers to your rhetorical questions you just asked, but the point in asking them is the fact that there was a decision made at some point and many various points throughout time, we made these decisions.
B: The Time Lords met in the Council of Time and decided to impose their temporal imperialism on the rest of us. By the way, before we move on, I wanna say I'm so glad that you mentioned the podcast, because that the other podcast that you host, I was like, "Is he gonna plug it, is he gonna plug it?" That's the cool, what is it? Cool, cool. What is it called now? Cool Stuff Ride Home?
J: Cool Stuff Ride Home, yeah.
B: Cool Stuff Ride Home.
J: We're eternally changing our name, it's very helpful for search and discovery.
B: Well, you know, it's all about you're discovering new things and sometimes the thing you discover is yourself and your identity as a podcast.
J: Oh wow.
B: But, I can't recommend it enough because Jack goes down, you know how like you're at work and you're not super interested in doing your actual job, so you find yourself going down a rabbit hole and you started by looking up the sandwich that you ate for lunch and next thing you know, you're finding out what led to certain development and like rifle ammunitions in the 1800s or something like that? That's the podcast. Jack will just go down those wild rabbit holes for you and find out cool stuff that relates to current events. And while most of current events is, oh, I don't know, terrible, every once in a while, there's something that's actually really fascinating. And so he'll share that story with you to remind you that maybe there's a reason to keep on going and that there's fascinating things still happening in this world. So if you're not listening to our podcast, you should be listening to that one.
J: Wow, man, that was, that, thank you for that. That was great. And also, I might need to like clip that little bit of this recording to use for our targeted advertising we're trying to do.
B: There you go.
J: 'Cause that was way better than any way I've tried to describe it in ads.
B: I'll send you a rate sheet for my voice over talents.
J: Right, yeah, yeah, you'll have to send me an invoice.
B: But yeah, that's like, that's just the little tidbit of what's new with us, because you know, it's been a while and we haven't even gotten to catch up, the two of us that much, so.
J: Yeah.
B: As we learn more about what's going on in each other's lives, which is just like a super duper awesome friendship thing, we'll share some of that here, but with that little recap done, let's say you and I launch into the nitty gritty meaty feety of this episode.
J: Yeah, I mean, I think, sorry, that one really got me. You know, I appreciate it because the theme of this episode does also rhyme. So I like that you were trying to keep on that rhyming scheme there.
B: Yeah, well, and also ...
J: Meaty feety Short King Spring.
B: Yeah, as a new Philadelphian too, I have to acknowledge the fact that I've abandoned all the old gods, there is only Gritty who remains now.
J: Yeah, I did notice that you threw Gritty in there.
B: Oh yes.
J: Gritty, the all powerful.
B: Yes, because Gritty has thrown themselves into me. Much like if you've ever read anything about like Santeria or voodoo rituals, like when folks do practice those Santeria religions, they call down spirits who like take possession of them, but not in like a demonic way. Like the human becomes the vessel, the channel for the divine. As a new Philadelphian there are times where I am the channel for Gritty. And those are the times when I am most in tune with the nature of this city, which is well-meaning chaos.
J: Wow.
B: That's how I think of it. Like good natured, look out for one another, but chaotic.
J: Hmm. You know, Gritty is very tall.
B: Is, oh, that's, that's, all right. Well, I guess that means that we can't say that Gritty is a short, you know, short regent.
J: Short regent.
B: I've actually never seen Gritty in person, which is.
J: I feel like I've seen some photos where I was just like, "Oh wow, very large mascot." I mean, I saw Gritty's nudes. Gritty posed like the French girls for artists.
B: In one of my friends' bathrooms, they have up like, like it's in the bathroom in front of the toilet. They have up a shot of Gritty streaking across, I guess it's across the ice, but they like laid out a rubber thing for Gritty to run across. And so Gritty is just running around, you know, naked. I'm doing quote fingers because Gritty's a costume, being chased by security guys and it's splendid. So, you know, but yes, I do think that your assessment is correct. Gritty is in fact tall. So as much as I love Gritty, we're going to pivot away from talking about Gritty because tall people have had their time. The towers among us, the basketball players, the perfectly shaped models, the flight attendants. 'Cause apparently there's a height requirement to be a flight attendant.
J: Wait, really?
B: I heard about this once it was from this woman who got like that surgery where they break your legs and then extend them.
J: Oh yeah.
B: In order to meet this height requirement. So not her. She had to suffer for it, but the folks who are naturally tall.
J: Oh, I see. Yeah, we don't curse her, but curse the people who are naturally tall is where you're going with this. Okay, yeah, yeah.
B: They've had their time, now it's our time. Now is Short King Spring. And so why don't you play us in, paint us a word picture? What does that mean?
J: So the term Short King has been around for a while. I think some places are citing it as having started in like 2018. I feel like I've been hearing it for about that long, maybe longer, but in the past month, something has emerged on TikTok, and now in a bunch of hot take pieces called Short King Spring. And basically just saying that this season it's gonna be all about the short kings. None of those tall flight attendants Bo was talking about. And I like this as a short person. I'm five foot four. And you know, I think it's cool to have these remote moments of reclamation, but the term Short King in some of the ways that it's used has always actually kind of bothered me. And so I have complicated feelings about it. And I brought this up to you. I immediately like shared one of these articles with you, and you were more positive about Short King, at least at first. And you said something that I didn't ask you more on then. So I'd love to hear more of your thoughts now about like, I guess when you have seen it a lot, it's been in a bit of like an internet humor kind of way. And so you've been into it because of that.
B: Yeah, so I think, I think my first experience with it was the Twitter person, Jaboukie, I think.
J: Oh yeah, yeah.
B: I think, that's a real person, but I can't remember if Jaboukie is just the handle or if that's their actual name, but Jaboukie posted some stuff, and this is around 2018 when you're saying, I think. Well, maybe I can maybe use my mastery of the advanced search, you know, my mastery of the built in thing that's supposed to work on the website to find the original thread, but where it's just a full on exploration of the Short King and it's really like lifting up. And I don't mean in like a sense where we're so small, we must be picked up in order to like see over crowds or something like that, but really like lifting up people who, men especially, who are shorter in a society that tends to value tallness. And for the interest of this podcast, we tend to attach senses of masculinity, of like, you know, more developed masculinity to height. So like in uplifting the Short King, you know, it kind of acknowledges our supposed societal shortcoming, literal shortcoming, and the fact that we're not that tall, but also talks about how we kind of like make up for it in other ways, because we have to like try a little harder. We have to like develop a more charismatic personality or something like that. Or we have to be funny or we have to, you know, know how to dress for our height, which is something that I still have not mastered.
J: Very complicated.
B: Yeah. Very complicated thing. You wanna rock the untucked shirt look? Well, you better hope that those shirts aren't made for taller people, because then it's like you're wearing a nightgown. But yeah, like, so in this thread and in other stuff that I've seen since then, and I actually didn't realize that it was becoming like a, that it was gaining steam and becoming like a trend, but I've definitely seen more people who are shorter kind of be encouraged to embrace that and not feel like it's something that's like holding them back. And especially when it comes to to men. Like, so I talked about like dressing for your height and like anybody who sees me in like my civvies, as they call them, like my non-work clothes. And sometimes even my work clothes, can tell that I sort of like modeled my personal style after James Hetfield from Metallica. Shout out, poppa head, my metal dad.
J: James Hetfield definitely influenced your work informally.
B: Yeah, James Hatfield is six two.
J: Wow.
B: I am no James Hetfield. I'm five, six if I have good posture, which I don't. So like trying to sport like tight jeans that make your legs look longer and motorcycle boots when you don't really have a lot of leg to begin with, and the boots clearly add like an extra inch to your height and make you kinda walk around like a newborn giraffe. It doesn't really work for me. I still do it anyway, but the whole Short King idea, I feel like it encourages of somebody like me perhaps to, you know, maybe not try to aspire to someone who by winning the genetic, not even winning, by receiving a genetic, a hand in the genetic poker dealing, is taller, and instead try to like, you know, be happier being me. And so, like, that's what I see in Short Kings. And then also it extends into like relationships where, you know, if you have a partner who is taller than you, but they refer to you as their Short King, like, it kind of feels like it's like, the goth GF thing that you'll see on like different tweets and memes and that sort of stuff where, you know, maybe there's a certain, maybe there's kind of a weirdness where you're like being fetishized, but if you push that to the side, you're being valued for this thing that lots of people will like bully you for, or, you know, clothing will not really be made for, or the people that you see in movies and TV will not be idealizing. And it's nice to see this momentum behind not just encouraging short people to feel nice, you know, to feel good about being short, but also encouraging people who love short people to love them for their shortness, as opposed to in spite of it.
J: Yeah, I mean, that is all the reasons I also like it. You said, if you can push the potential of fetishizing aside, it's good. So I wanna pull that back and dig into that, and not so much fetishizing, but just some of the, and I'm like pronouncing that weird when you conjugate it that way, fetishizing.
B: It's a weird word.
J: It is a weird word. And that's not exactly the word that I wanna use for, for what I wanna get into maybe more like placating or something, but before I do, I pulled up the tweet. So the original Jaboukie tweet, and here's what it says. The podcast is marked for explicit language already, but there is explicit language right at the top here.
B: Fuck yeah, there is.
J: He says, "I'm fucking tired of short used as an insult. "Short gave you Donald Glover. "Short gave you Tom Holland. "Short gave you Daniel Kaluuya. "Short gave you Bruno Fucking Mars. "Short Kings are the enemy of body negativity "and I'll be forever proud to defend them."
B: That's much better than I remember, hot damn!
J: It's a good tweet, it's a good tweet. And yeah, neither of us are exactly familiar with Jaboukie as a human. The way the last line is phrased as defending them, I'm thinking maybe not a short man or short king, but that is kind of where I take a little bit of issue with it. Is like if someone is referring to themselves as a Short King, love it, go for it. More power to you. I have maybe used it in reference to myself before, but I can sometimes get a little bit frustrated when other people use it. Frustrated is isn't even quite the right word. It just like, it doesn't land in a way that feels empowering to me when it is used by other people towards me, or like towards short men in general, I guess, because it just often feels like it's, uh, it's almost like ...
B: Patronizing?
J: Yeah, patronizing is a good way to describe it. I don't wanna say that these things are equivalent at all, but it feels a little bit like when you call a disabled person inspiring or like a trans person brave.
B: Oh yeah, yeah.
J: Yeah. it feels like we're maybe reaching over a little too much here and like making it like too positive and twee without recognizing like some of the baggage that you were talking about, that comes with being a short man in a society that devalues short men in some way. You know, the article that I originally sent you was from Vice, ID Vice and was written by Laura Pitcher. And it talks about like some of the very real effects of being short in general, but specifically being a short man, this, I love this part, it says, "A man who's five, six needs to earn "an additional $175,000 per year to be "as desirable as a man who is six foot tall."
B: That is bonkers by the way, because I would love to know how she arrived at that figure, because that means that like somewhere there's a version of me that earns negative money because I don't earn a lot. So.
J: That was based on a 2006 study from the University of Chicago Department of Economics called "What makes you click, make different, "make preferences and matching outcomes in online dating."
B: Fascinating.
J: So that was a legit study. And, you know, that's, I think dating apps especially is one of the places where this has become particularly contentious. There's, you know, all kinds of people who will put things in their profile about like, you know, under six foot need not apply basically. And that's part of why we've seen the Short King sort of movement and Short King Spring coming back, because I think people are fighting against, fighting back against that, which I think is good. I love that, I love everything that you were saying about, let's try to break down these like biases and weird prejudices against people based on their height and especially like the different ways that it can be deployed against men and like short men not being as attractive or seen as confident or successful and all those kinds of things. That's just like totally stupid. So I do like all of that, but yeah, I sometimes can't get over how it feels a bit patronizing. And I think for me where some of that comes out and like one reason I might be a little bit sensitive to that is particularly being trans, especially over the last several years, as like trans visibility has grown in a lot of online spaces, sometimes trans men and trans-masculine people can be like, almost like infantalized in a lot of ways. There's a lot of the like, "Ooh, woo." Like soft boy kind of stuff. And it's like, you know, for any trans man or trans-masculine person for which that is true, that's awesome. Love it, love a more feminine man or like, you know, masculine person who also is very feminine, like love all of that. But like, it can sometimes be really hard to find people who are treating trans men as like the men that we are of the age that we are. Like it seems like the way that a lot of people have to like process accepting us is by viewing us as some kind of like man-lite or like boys and like soft boys, and like all that kind of thing. And so sometimes like Short King feels very wrapped up in all of that to me.
B: Yeah.
J: And so I think that's why I particularly am like clearly a bit emotional about my reaction to it sometimes.
B: It's like branding you a diet dude.
J: Yeah. I don't wanna be a diet dude, I just wanna be a dude. No Aspartame here.
B: Yeah, and I, you know, I totally get that. Like it's, I can see where even people would be like well meaning, but it's ...
J: Yeah.
B: And like you say, like there, there are, there are folks who are CIS, who are trans, who have all sorts of different experiences who will lean into the perception of femininity and the soft boy aesthetic, and that's what they want. But like, when people ascribe that to you and they're not meeting you on your terms, that's, you know, it can piss anybody off to be put in a box that you're not trying to be put into.
J: Yeah, yeah. And that's my biggest thing. And I wanna make it really clear that like, I appreciate the overall movement. I think anyone who wants to call themself a Short King should, or calling someone who you know likes that term, a Short King, is great. And I think anyone expressing themselves in any sort of way, you can be a trans guy and be as feminine and soft as you want and I think that's amazing, but I personally, as a more like binary trans man am occasionally frustrated by having those types of stereotypes or impressions thrust upon me. But I am curious, like, so I have all of that extra baggage with the Short King thing as a trans guy, but you know, it wasn't until I was, had reached my full height, as tall as I was ever gonna be, that I even realized I could transition and that was a thing. So like when I was growing up, I was still always like the shortest in my class, but it was a different kind of feeling, especially 'cause you know, messed up body image stuff that we put on women and girls. Like honestly I was like, "Oh, I wanna be like as small as possible." Which is all so messed up. But so I didn't really have any kind of like complex about my height in any way. It was definitely a consideration when I was like, "Oh, if I transition, I'm gonna be a very small man." But I, you know, I'm curious your perspective growing up CIS, like, you know, at, was there a point or different points when you were like frustrated by not being a certain height and also in that like were your dad and brother very tall or like, did you kind of know that you were gonna be shorter?
B: Oh man, I'm so glad you asked that. So my dad is shorter now because as you get older, you kind of, you know, shrink because your bones settle or your posture changes or whatever, but he was six feet tall when I was growing up.
J: What?
B: Yeah. My dad was not a short dude. And my brother is like five, I don't know, five, eight-and-a-half, five, nine. So he's not like super tall, but he's a good bit taller than me, and ...
J: Those are the like exact heights of my dad and brother, just for the record.
B: Yeah, and I always thought that like five, nine, five, 10 was kind of like the ideal height where you're like you're tall, but you're not like cartoonishly tall. And I'm sorry to any tall people who might be hearing this, I don't think that you're cartoonish. I think it's ...
J: Despite just saying that, despite literally just saying that?
B: Yeah, well I think, I think it's, I think it's a perspective of being so much shorter than so many tall people is that just, just the sheer height difference looks distorted to us, but yeah.
J: No, that's totally true. I will just say that this, this is an episode in which we are not being particularly friendly to tall people, sorry.
B: Well, again, my hero, six, two. When I was growing up, I wanted to be a pro wrestler and I thought, my favorite wrestler was Jeff Hardy and he was six one. And I was like, "Oh, he's one of the little guys." Batman is six feet tall. Daredevil is six foot one. Captain America, I don't know, six, four, after the serum, you know? Like tall dudes are awesome. If you're tall, fuck yeah, good for you. Good for you. But like growing up as somebody who was smaller, you know, I was short when I was a kid, but I looked at my dad and I was like, "Maybe someday I'll be tall." And my brother got taller. And like I got picked on a lot for being small. I was, 'cause I was not only short, I was also like slight for a lot of my childhood. You know, like I was, I just didn't take up a lot of space. It kind of funny that you ask though about like what my experience with growing up was because I, I remember distinctly in sixth grade, I got my growth spurt a little bit before some of my other friends did. So I went from being like four, 11 to being like five, four in a couple of weeks because it happened very quickly.
J: Whoa, sore bones.
B: It was very painful. Like it was actually kind of hilarious, because like I got, I spurted up. I was skinny, but lean. And like I remember this kid who had picked on me, like picked a fight with me after this, and I didn't kick his ass, but I won the fight. So like, I had this like short period, short period, of feeling the power of being a taller guy. And then everybody else got their growth spurt and I was short again. It was hilarious. And then I stayed that height and I kept on looking at my brother thinking like maybe I'll get a little bit taller and looking at my dad thinking maybe I'll get a little taller and then looking at my mom who's five, one. And she would just be like, "Hey man, I'm sorry." So yeah, you know, I've got some feelings about it. And then reading this article that you sent over, that was the first time, like I had thought it in my head, this idea of a dysphoria, but I've seen it so much in the sense of like, you know, body image in terms of terms of weight or what a person's experience regarding their gender identity is. And so I was like, "I'm just a short guy." Like that's not dysphoria. Like there's again, genetic crap shute. Some people are tall, some people aren't.
J: Yeah.
B: It is what it is. And, but to see it actually written out and to hear other people like talking about like, it's not just, it's not just that people picked on you for being short, it's that you always thought that you would be taller. And so you tried to carry the confidence of like, not even the confidence, 'cause like, sorry, I'm kind of tripping over this really, but like you shouldn't have to be tall to be confident. I feel like that's something that society ascribes to people. So it's not even that you want to have the confidence of a tall person, but rather that you want to have the confidence that society imagines that a tall person would have. So like, it's kind of like a, it's an aspirational thing that then you look at yourself in a mirror or against a wall or next to a taller peer and you're like, "Oh cool. "I'm just never gonna be there." And it's, it can be a bit of a bummer, but you know, there's, I think that's why I like the Short King thing. I totally understand your critique of it though. Like I want to be, I want someone to look at me and be like, "Hey, you do you, Short King." Like in an empowering sense. I don't want somebody to be like, "Oh, who's a cute little short king?"
B: Yeah.
J: Like it's totally different deliveries. So I definitely, I recognize that it has its downsides and there is baggage associated with it. But for me personally, as somebody who looked up to people, literally. I keep on hitting these dumb puns.
J: Yeah, you're just full of these.
B: Yeah. But as somebody who looked up to people who were on the taller side in my, and like, again, this is, there's a cultural element to the people that we put in the spotlight and the people that we value. The tall superheroes, the tall, again for me, pro wrestling was the thing I was super into and seeing, you know, seeing The Rock is six, five, and being like, "Yeah, I could, I could do that." Like, "No, "that's a hard height to reach for a lot of people, bro."
J: Yeah.
B: Or again, James Hetfield from Metallica. Great thing to learn is that everybody else in Metallica is short, or shorter. So, you know, there, I think that you kind of grow up with an idea in your head and you kind of don't reach it. But I will end, and there, for me, at least, there's an added component where being Hispanic, being Mexican American, we're not known for our height. Like when I was into pro wrestling, and I still kind of am, I was also into like Lucha Libre. And so I would look at the Luchadores, and not only were a lot of them, you know, they had different body types. Like they weren't ripped. They had that like traditional wrestler build where like they're a little bit meatier, but they still look strong. They're kind of stocky. They also tended to be pretty short. There's a couple of guys, like Violencia, Blas, he's tall, but a lot of the other Mexican Luchadores were, you know, a bit more average height. And so I think that there's an added dimension being Mexican American where, you know, I'm not asking for a lot, I guess, in terms of height. I learned pretty early on that I wasn't gonna be six, five or six, three, or something like that. But like, you know, five, nine, that's well within our reach. And it reminds me of, there's a gag in Once Upon a Time in Mexico where Cheech is describing Antonio Banderas' character. And he's telling a story about him getting into a bar fight. And he's like, "Everybody tells me that "the tallest Mexican they ever seen walks in, "and, you know, he's five, nine, five, 10." And I was like, "Yeah, that's tall for us." J: Yeah.
B: So there's a whole extra dimension there, but being yeah, five, six. Oh, I'm just saying being five, six means that I still kind of like came in under the bar, but it's something that I'm learning every day a little bit more to be okay with.
J: Yeah, no, I love that. And I'm glad you brought that up because I mean, one thing I was gonna ask was like, you know, particularly like being Hispanic, and you grew up, like your school was predominantly white, right?
B: Yes.
J: Yeah, and so I was wondering if there was that kind of like tension of like, you maybe knew that you weren't gonna be like super tall, but you would still get like picked on in some way. And I don't know.
B: Oh yeah, I was being picked on for being short like up through like sophomore year of high school.
J: Dang.
B: So, you know, it was definitely, it was definitely a thing. And like, there were definitely a lot of like taller, you know, kind of corn-fed-looking country white boys. J: Right.
B: So it was definitely, that's part of my experience.
J: I mean, that's a great thing about living in urban areas is there's so many people from so many different backgrounds. I don't feel that short too often. Like, I, it is very common to be in a space in New York City and not be the shortest man in the room, because there's just like people from so many different like ethnicities and backgrounds and stuff, and like, that's a cool feeling. I like that.
B: Yeah, and that's something that I've experienced as well and it does kind of make you feel less alone.
J: Yes. And I'm glad you said that because I wanted to pick up on something else that you had said about another positive to Short King as a term, and like Short King Spring, which is, it kind of has brought out a lot of men talking about how they feel about being short and what their experiences were. So a lot of like what you were just sharing about how you felt growing up and thinking you would be taller and all that sort of stuff. Like having an opportunity to hear that from so many other guys has been really cool. Like in the article that we mentioned and we'll link in the show notes, they interviewed two other trans guys. And like, I talked to trans guys a lot, but it was still like really validating to hear their perspectives. And, you know, I think in any case like this, getting to hear other people's stories and maybe have them resonate with you a little bit is really cool. So that's a huge positive.
B: Oh yeah, anytime you can feel seen and feel like you're less alone. I think that's definitely one of the upsides of Short King Spring.
J: That is the side of Short King Spring that I like. And the thing that bothers me, I think sometimes, is when it does come off in that way, where I almost feel embarrassed when someone says it about me. And it's because I think sometimes that like over eagerness to reclaim on behalf of someone else, and you know, what we were talking about of sort of like putting this term on other people, it doesn't do enough to acknowledge all of those emotions and feelings that people have behind it. Those stories that we were just talking about that are so important. And, 'cause I think that's a big element to it. Like a big part of reclaiming means that there was something to reclaim. There was something that you didn't have in a way, or that was used against you. And sometimes I feel like the way that Short King Spring is used, like just doesn't fully acknowledge the weight of that. Does that make sense?
B: It does, and it actually has me wondering like, what has been your experience kind of like, you know, navigating, I suppose, a good way to put this is like spaces that are traditionally masculine as someone of your experience and as somebody of your height, like how does, how have you felt? You know, you asked me how I felt growing up, so how have you felt?
J: You know, I think it's been most of the time, secondary to other feelings that are top of mind with being trans or up until the pandemic and being almost 32 really aging me, the ageism thing, which the height played into. But like, you know, what would bother me more was like, if I was being read as male, I was often being read as like a teenager or something. And that got really frustrating when I was in my thirties. And you know, like I said, in New York City, I don't tend to feel too short. And even in my friend group, like you're shorter, our friend Tom is shorter. We joke our friend, Andrew, who I think isn't even quite six foot, he's the tall friend. B: Andrew's fucking huge.
J: Yeah, we're always like, "Oh, you reach this, "you're so tall." And he's like, "I'm not tall."
B: Andrew, if you're listening, we're sorry.
J: Yeah.
B: But you're long.
J: But yeah, I guess I'm having more and more experiences where I don't even have to worry about potentially being clocked as trans. And so then it's starting to experience the world just purely as a short man. And I guess one thing that does come up, I don't know if you get this at all, but I feel like people do still treat me as a little like younger or weaker or something because I am smaller.
B: I don't know if people treat me like that. I definitely feel like that.
J: That might also be true for me. I might totally be projecting.
B: Well, I like, I haven't noticed. And I also, like, I've been noticing this lately where I have a weird relationship with my age because like, I still engage with a lot of, and lots of people do this, but I guess I'm just overthinking it, 'cause that's what we do, overthinkers. I engage with a lot of the pop culture that I did when I was like in high school. So sometimes like, it's almost like I'm still in my high school brain, but then at this job that I recently started, I have, I have people that like report to me and I find myself like talking like old man Bo. So it kind of like has this weird interaction with my age, but then like when I'm walking to work or walking around outside, and especially if I'm wearing a backpack and I catch my reflection in the window, I feel like I look like a 10 year old. And so it has this, there is a weird thing where sometimes I feel like I'm stuck as a kid mentally, physically, other times I feel like I am an old guy in a kid body, and other times it's like again, time, social construct that it is, I can kind of feel it bending around me in weird sorts of ways because of my perception of myself, where I am in time. But also what my physical presence is like. Like there have been times where I have blended in with crowds of middle schoolers because I happen to be about the same size, I'm wearing something that kind of looks like a school uniform, and I have a backpack on.
J: Yeah, oh yeah. Anytime I'm like walking, you know, by a school in the city. I hate when I accidentally walk by when like class has just gotten out and I've got my backpack on. I'm like, "Man, some teacher is gonna yell at me "for not being in the right place."
B: Yeah.
J: No, I totally feel that of like sometimes I feel too old for how young I look, or young I can be perceived to be at times. And then other times I'm like, "Why is my body aging without me? "I'm still young."
B: Yeah, it's like a whole Benjamin Button thing.
J: Yeah, I was also just thinking the other day, this like only tangentially relates to height really, but on this topic of sort of aging and perception of people who treat me as my age or older than them, whether actually, or kind of in spirit, 'cause I can act like an old man sometimes. I feel way more affirmed as a man in those moments versus people who treat me as if I'm younger or who are just substantially older than me. I sometimes, well maybe not as much that one, but people maybe who are similar in age to me and treat me like I'm younger, is like sort of a source of dysphoria in a way. Like it brings out my feelings of like inadequacy and gender at times. I was just sort of like connecting those dots the other day. And I'm not entirely sure why that is, but it sounds like, based on this episode, I have a lot to unpack about the ways that I think people are perceiving and treating me.
B: I mean, you know, that's something that, you know, I've experienced my own version of it too. It's like, we kind of, we have these, and I think we've internalized them. Like I think what you're experiencing could be your own internalized version of societal expectations and the values that are ascribed to certain body types.
J: Yeah.
B: So like, you know, when people speak to you as if you're younger and you also happen to be shorter, it has this like double whammy of this infantalizing feeling.
J: Yeah.
B: So, it could be a little nasty. But you know, I think, for me at least to bring it back around to the topic, I think that's where the whole Short King concept can kind of, it's upending some of that.
J: Yeah.
B: You know? And like, I'm glad that there, that in the Jaboukie tweet that you mentioned, there are so many people that are called out, Donald Glover, Tom Holland, those are the few that I remember from that tweet who are like, you know, they're respected people within their, what's the word I'm looking for? Their vocations, their fields, yeah. And so it's like, you know, where the whole Short King idea is kind of saying like, "Yes, you can be somebody whose body doesn't fit into "what society thinks this, you know, is required of you "for this level of respect." And still have this level of respect.
J: Yeah. I love that. And on the note of, you know, those particular Short Kings that were called out in the tweet, why don't we wrap this up by nominating our own favorite Short Kings? I guess you don't nominate kings, huh?
B: Well, that's a whole nother ball of wax is like, should it be Short Kings? Should we be supporting short monarchy and short imperialism? I don't know.
J: Yeah.
B: And also like, why does it have to be spring? 'Cause it rhymes, I get it. But like, does that mean that as they ...
J: And that's the moment we're in right now.
B: Yeah.
J: Mr. Time-Is-A-Social-Construct.
B: Sure. But are we about to see flocks of Short Kings migrating to different parts of the country or something like?
J: Like the Monarch butterflies.
B: Yeah, exactly. But yeah, so, but yeah, sorry. I took your good joke and then milked it dry. I do think that we should nominate some favorite short representatives, short presidents that represent.
J: Yeah, rank choice voting, elected, short presidents.
B: Who do you got?
J: I have gotta go with my number one, Michael J. Fox. He has been one of my favorite humans since I first saw Back to the Future when I was very, very small, not just short, but also small in age. And yeah, I mean, Marty McFly has always been one of my favorite, like fictional characters of all time. And like he was so cool, he did so much. And like I never even really noticed that he was smaller than all the other men in the movie. And Michael J. Fox went on to do so many other roles where that was the case. Like he's just such a confident and cool person who brings so much energy to the room that, yeah, I love him. I think he's super cool. And I think he's also done a lot of really, really important work since leaving acting for the most part. So I love Michael J. Fox. I would love to be as cool as Michael J. Fox one day.
B: Strong pick, great pick.
J: What about you?
B: So, I have a list, but I'm gonna keep it to one. So I'm gonna put the one.
J: Yeah, you got like a king, a regent and a prince maybe? B: Maybe. Well, actually, Prince.
J: The whole cabinet. Prince!
B: Prince was wee.
J: He was very small.
B: And he was a fashion icon, he was a sex symbol. Like not only could he like wail and create, you know, incredible music, but he was, he had this, you know, he was desirable.
J: Yeah.
B: And you know, also like when you kind of get into, you know, some of the people who were close with him and his personality, he could also be kind of like, you know, threatening isn't the right word. Forceful, I guess. And like that could easily veer toxic. And I think there are stories of it happening with him, you know, not to say anything ill of those who have departed, but like the idea that someone who is shorter can still to a degree, be imposing for some people who, especially people who have maybe been picked on, might mean a little bit. So I think I'll start with him as the prince, but I will say that for me, the Short Ling, not just because I keep on getting compared to him, but fucking Jack Black.
J: Yeah.
B: I didn't, I actually didn't realize that he's, he and I are about the same height. So like, you know.
J: That's awesome.
B: Yeah. This is a guy who's had a very successful career and spends a lot of it these days in a Speedo. So he is like owning it. J: Yeah. If you have not watched his TikToks, go do yourself a favor now. They're amazing.
B: Beyond the comedy, beyond the singing, beyond the talent, the fact that he's doing this sort of stuff on TikTok, I think it displays a lot of really great ownership of his body, because he is a shorter guy. He is a bigger guy. And I feel like those are two body types folded together that we don't really see a lot of love for. We're seeing more of it now I think because society is more aware of that, but I'm gonna say he's my Short King. And there there's a lot of others that we can shout out if we want to, but I'm gonna leave it with him for now.
J: I love it. Yeah, Jack Black is great. I think these were great picks. I love all of the Short Kings here. And I will just say, 'cause I know I have mostly been on the negative contrarian and as usual, existential crisis side of the podcast. But I do just wanna reiterate that in general I do like the Short King thing. I think that for any of the faults that I have perceived for the moment, it is still overall, like one of those things where it is ultimately leading to good. And I think when we see things like this, where we are challenging longstanding notions and biases, like there is always this like well intentioned like contingent that doesn't like quite land what they're going for. But all the discussions that come around that help ultimately shift the tides in a, shift the sands in a positive direction. And I do love that like, yeah, a lot more short men are feeling empowered and feeling confident and sexy off the back of some of these discussions. And so many people who are into men standing up and being like, "Hell yeah, Short Kings."
B: That's an awesome, awesome place to end that. That's a great sentiment.
J: Thanks man. Should we dive into our very mature Just the Tip now?
B: Yeah, and with that, here's a dick joke.
J: All right, so Just the Tip is our opportunity to air whatever we want to for just one minute. You know, sometimes we like to say that, you know, as men, it's tough for us to talk about our emotions, unless of course there's the safety of a podcast microphone in between us. And so this is our opportunity for just one minute, don't wanna get too wild here. Just one minute to talk about whatever has been on our mind this week. Could be good, could be frustrating. Could be sad, maybe. So we will each get one minute and one minute only to have the floor and discuss whatever we want it to be. So Bo, are you ready?
B: Oh man, men will literally start a podcast instead of going to therapy. J: It's true.
B: Therapy's awesome, just gonna throw that out there. If you're considering it, give it a shot. But yeah, I'm ready.
J: All right, I'm gonna count you down. Three, two, one.
B: All right. So what I'm feeling recently is a lot of anger and frustration and disappointment. And I'm going to call out who it's at. It's at like most of the Democratic Party. We have the usual right wing, conservative, Republican, whatever you wanna call it, culture war machine, just throwing its everything at voting rights and reproductive justice, and what we can and can't talk about in schools and trans rights. And you know, we were encouraged to vote for and believe in the members of this party as opposition to that, right? And there are, sure, there are a few people, there are a handful of those representatives who have been elected, who represent the Democratic Party, who I think are quote, unquote, fighting the good fight. Like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, sorry. Tends to be a pretty vocal proponent of progressive causes. Elizabeth Warren, always a fucking champ. Oh man, really?
J: Yeah, but you know, I like ending on, "Elizabeth Warren, always a fucking champ."
B: All right, well.
J: Good ending.
B: I'm just gonna wrap up the thought real quick is.
J: Go for it.
B: Basically I'm frustrated at the Democratic Party for, you know, courting our support and then just not fighting very hard. I feel like, you know, they are introducing bare minimum policies and then when it gets blocked in, you know, whatever chamber of Congress or whatever process, there's like, "Well, we tried, uh-oh." And we just, we deserve more than that.
J: Yeah, yeah, I couldn't agree more. I think this discussion's gonna ramp up a lot ahead of the midterms and it's particularly frustrating to have seen some inaction when we know that we are probably going to be losing like the house or something come this fall, so.
B: Yeah, it's like, at some point you say, "Fuck it." And you go for broke and you try to make a lasting difference, even if it means that you're not gonna win the midterms.
J: Yeah. I am always comforted by looking up some of the stuff that, a lot of stuff that has actually been passed over the past few years, because there's always stuff where I'm like, "Why are we not talking about that?" Like, in my opinion, one of the problems with Democratic Party is also like owning our wins.
B: Yeah.
J: And I would like to see us do more of that.
B: I think I understand, like, you know, the other side so to speak is very bombastic these days.
J: Yes, yeah.
B: And so there's a desire to play by the rules, to show humility.
J: Yeah.
B: But like, there's a line. And I'm not saying break the rules, but just like, you know, put up a fight and own the wins. I like that you say, "Own the wins."
J: Yeah.
B: Cool. That's a lot more than a minute for me, so onto you.
J: Well, I think, you know, my Just the Tip is certainly as dire and serious as electoral politics.
B: Are you timing you?
J: I'll, yeah, I can time me since I got it all set up. Okay, so. You can still count me down though.
B: All right, three, two, one, have at it.
J: So I have a lot going on in my life right now and a lot of different directions, but honestly, the only thing that I can think about right now is the new HBO max show, Our Flag Means Death. It was created by David Jenkins and stars and executive produced by Taika Waititi. Also stars Rhys Darby. Looks like it's just like a funny pirate romp, yay. Turns out it's a queer romcom. I forgot a spoiler alert here, that's most of the spoiler, but just fast forward 35 seconds if you don't want more spoilers. And I am in love, weak at the knees with the way that it represented queerness. And it was an amazing, wonderful surprise since it wasn't marketed as a queer film, but the bigger thing is how it handles masculinity and toxic masculinity and unpacking toxic masculinity and unlearning all of that and how hard it is and how you go back and forth. And the, just the struggles with that. And Bo, you have to finish it, 'cause I wanna do a whole episode. I have a lot of feelings and thoughts on masculinity in Our Flag Means Death. Hold on. Ah.
B: Wow.
J: I could see it going down and I was like, "I'll stop my thought there."
B: So efficient, I'm impressed with you. Wow, that's awesome.
J: I had the advantage of seeing the timer go down.
B: Yeah. I think I need to do that, 'cause that way I won't get tripped up on calling out particular people. Use my time more wisely. But anyway, that's great. That's awesome to hear. I have been watching it a little bit, I do enjoy it. I feel like it's just, it's starting to pick up, I'm like two episodes in. So I'm very curious to see where it goes. I like to say that I'm spoiler proof in that even if you tell me exact details of what the thing is, I'll still wanna know how they got there. So like don't ...
J: Yeah, totally.
B: And you didn't even really give a huge spoiler. Like so, but.
J: No, not at all.
B: Also I love pirates, pirates are fascinating. So like let's roll it all together.
J: Pirates are great, and I will say to anyone, you know, trying to check it out, wanting to check it out, season two or three is when you get like a non-binary character.
B: Episode two or three?
J: Yeah, and there, oh yeah, episodes, sorry. It's on season one, there's only one season so far. It has not officially been renewed. I hope that is an outdated statement for the positive by the time this episode is up. 'Cause it's like one of HBO Max's best performing shows of like the past year. So it's got an amazing cast, it's gotta be renewed. But yeah, for people who are like, "I don't know, it was like kind of funny, whatever." Give it a few episodes. By like episode three, I think, you get one of the queer couples. Episode four is when you start being like, "Oh, this is a romcom." Which is what the creators are like, "Yes, it is a pirate romcom." And ultimately you get like three plus queer relationships in this show that is not being marketed as a queer show, because like it doesn't have to be. It's queer, and mostly it's about pirates. And I just love, I love that. I love that like, it's just a, it's a new era of queer representation that I'm very happy about.
B: Yeah, I kind of like this idea of not pigeonholing queer stories into like the queer section of the library. Like the LGBTQ section of the library or whatever, like it just, these stories are human stories that can be in any genre or any time period or any, you know, part of the block, of the metaphorical blockbuster. So yeah.
J: One of my favorite things to do is see if my book is shelved in LGBT or in biography when I go to bookstores.
B: Wow, yeah, that's fascinating.
J: I don't exactly like cast judgment either way, but I'm always curious.
B: Yeah, it's just interesting.
J: 'Cause like I went to one bookstore and it was in like Memoir and Biography. You know who's right next to me when that happens?
B: Warren Buffet?
J: Joe Biden.
B: Well, while you're over there, tell him to get his shit together.
J: Yes.
B: I voted for you, Joe. I believe in you, Joe. It's early, Joe. Do better, Joe. Anyway. No, but that is really cool. And yeah, I'm all for pirate stories. Also Rhys Darby is great. I could just hear him talk for a long time.
J: Oh yeah, he's wonderful. He's so great. And he's so great in this show in particular.
B: Stede Bonnet, real guy.
J: Stede Bonnet, yeah. And my roommate, Allison, has been going through a pirate phase for a while before the show even came out. So she had all the facts. It was like VH1 popup video, music videos of just like, "This is true, this is true, they got this right. "This was a little different, but this was true." And it's like, "Wow, so much of it was actually quite accurate."
B: Awesome.
J: So much of it based on real stuff, which is cool, 'cause like I'd sort of heard of Stede Bonnet here, you know, here and there over the years and always meant to learn more. But Stede Bonnet, the gentleman pirate makes for good TV.
B: Super awesome.
J: All right, we should wrap this up, 'cause I could talk about this show forever and I'm far past my one minute now.
B: Well, that's kind of, I think that's how the segment really works. We vent for a minute and then we unpack.
J: Debrief.
B: Yeah, we debrief. That's a good word for it. But anyway, yeah. Great, great talk. You know, I don't ...
J: Good talk good, go team, yeah.
B: I keep on saying like, you know, it's good to be back. I'm not trying to put additional pressure to keep on, to be at any point of regularity, but it is, it's nice to be doing this and I'm already looking forward to the next time, whenever it happens.
J: Yeah, and you know, just for anyone listening to know, we would both love if we did this regularly. Once a month, once a week, heck, would be awesome. It's just getting our shit together with all of our very busy ever changing lives. But we love doing this show and love hearing from all of you, your reactions. Apologies again to any tall people we might have offended in this episode. But no, as soon as we saw the Short King Spring thing, we were like, "We must make a podcast. "Now is the time to return. "It is Short King Spring and we shall emerge."
B: It is our time. Your time will come.
J: It's our time.
B: Hug a tall person, hug a short person.
J: Hug everyone.
B: Yeah.
J: Not everyone. Anyone who consensually would like to be hugged.
B: Yeah, hug people who wanna be hugged.
J: Get some good consensual hugs in there.
B: Exactly, boom, I love it.
J: Well anyway, yeah. Thank you all so much for listening. You know, if you want, since we haven't done this podcast in a while, we could probably use a little help of a little boost getting on people's screens. So, you know, you can always leave a rating review on Apple Podcast. That helps kind of push the podcast out there for search and discovery or, you know, give us a follow on Twitter and Instagram at Bigger Pod, is what we are on those channels. Or Bo, where can they send us an email if they wanna write a bit more?
B: You can send us suggestions, questions, curses, whatever you'd like to our email box at EverythingsBigger69@gmail.com. Oh, by the way, I think that email might be hacked, because I get a bunch of notifications about like job opportunities for somebody named Nicole. We're gonna talk about that off mic at some point.
J: We shall investigate that. So perhaps stick to the social media for now.
B: Oh, I think your emails are safe. I just mean we have to comb through a bunch of junk email in order to find them. So we'll figure that out.
J: Got it.
B: But yeah, leave us reviews, follow us, follow the podcast on social media, email us if you'd like, and then you can also follow us individually. You can follow Jack at Jackisnotabird across platforms, and you can follow me on Twitter or Instagram at el_enmascarabo.
J: And we'll love links to all of that and the stuff we mentioned in the show notes.
B: And yeah. Jack, thank you for taking the time, don't sell yourself short.
J:Oh, I like that. Thanks for taking the time with me too. I don't have a good zinger to end it.
B: Until next time, folks.